How to avoid Starter Clutch Disaster Modification

[Matchless]

Posplayr,
I had a look at your untested #4 solution last night. In the write up I assume a typo "The OR-Pin30 is NC when not energised" This should read NO as 87 & 30 closes when relay operates.

The diagram you used for the delay relay is most likely not the same as the normal 12 VDC relay pin layout. I am assuming that the Orange wire shown to pin 87a is the +12 V positive "Supply voltage" and the Yellow/Green from the solenoid/starter switch is the "Trigger". The delay relay must "latch" to keep OR operated when the motor is running. Not sure if such a delay relay can stay operated indefinitely.

The first problem that may crop up is that you are operating 2 relays in series, thus halving the current through each. Some relays may not like this. That is assuming the delay relay has the same standard coil as the OR relay with no other components built into its path to the trigger. If this is in fact a solid state delay relay the chances are good that you have components on those leads and may not get good current flow to operate OR in that way. The other issue is that the a false trigger (Positive) via OR coil and D1 may start up the timer before the starter button is pressed
Then the second or third start. After the first start the engine dies, then the circuit must go back to its first state to allow the exact same process for the next starting attempts. If this is not done, only the first start has the timing delay.
Good luck with locating workable relays.

[srsupertrap]

Option #2 Ergo Question

Final result after reassembly is that you have all of the exactly same stock functionality except with the key on, you can crank the starter without energizing the coils. (by having the kill switch off). You can also do as normal, turn on the ignition, turn on the kill switch and the bike will crank as normal.

If you want to take the precaution to avoid kick back, then

a.) Ignition Key on
b.) Kill switch off
c.) Crank with the starter button
d.) after two or three revolutions switch on the kill switch.

This is basically an implementation of option #2 but unlike option #1 only requires wiring changes in the switch and not anywhere in the harness. Also stock functionality is retained and the engine can not be cranked with the key off, but the kill switch can be controlled to only energizer the coils when wanted and independent of starter activation.

How did/does Step A thru Step D work from an ergonomic standpoint? or put another way do you release your hand from the throttle while holding the starter button & switching on the kill switch?

[posplayr]

srsupertrap

The ergonomics is perhaps unfamiliar but not bad. Other than standard right hand position on the throttle with thumb on the starter switch, you reach with the left hand and push the kill switch once the engine is spinning nicely. I can get some nice startups with virtually no noise from the starter.


Of course once the ignition switch is on in step a.) you dont need to hold it.

The only thing different from a standard engine start is you reach across your body with the left hand and turn "ON" the kill switch while cranking with right thumb. Hold the throttle a little if required,; On my bike I put in a little choke and so no throttle is required. When worm neither is required.

Posplayr

[posplayr]

Matchless

Well, OK

I did the schematic real quick just using the same symbols I already had. I kind of freaked because after assuming all I needed was a delay relay, I couldn't figure how to make it work. I'm basically trying to use simple parts to avoid a PC board( where I would have to get more professional help).


I'll take a look again but it seems that this may be a difficult modification if there are false fires that can occur. I was assuming that the +12V has to be maintained in order to get the delayed output. I'm not sure how these parts are implemented but if it is a thermal or current charge configuration then false triggers should not be as much of a problem.

I'm off to work so I'll see what you might suggest for an alternate.

Posplayr

[srsupertrap]

Posplayr

The ergonomics is perhaps unfamiliar but not bad. Other than standard right hand position on the throttle with thumb on the starter switch, you reach with the left hand and push the kill switch once the engine is spinning nicely. I can get some nice startups with virtually no noise from the starter.

Posplayr

My GS1000 requires the clutch lever to be pulled in. I take it you already rewired that switch?

[posplayr]

srsupertrap

They may have been rewired, but neither of my bikes requires that. Unless you want to short out your clutch switch, you might have to wait for the automatic option #4 solution.

Posplayr

[Matchless]

Hi posplayer,
Have you looked at the starter mod any further yet? I have sketched up my idea and it seems like it can be built on a small PC board with 3 relays and will be about the size of the igniter or flasher control. OK, not tested at all yet and quite a simple schematic. No real fancy parts at all.
Hopefully I will get some parts together during the next month or so and do a bench test.

[posplayr]

Matchless

Too much work spent and not much progress

I tried various design options with simple relays and then simple logic but no joy. Basically a delay relay doesn't get you very far. What is needed is basically a way of controlling the output relay with the kill switch but, being able to disable that same output relay during and initial startup delay as initiated by the starter button.

Following this design requirement, you need to perform some type of logical combining or the kill switch input with the active delay. While some of this logical combining can be done with a pair of relays, and some diodes, finding a 12 delay relay was rather expensive and almost none were found from cheaper sources.

I explored trying to design a circuit using Diode Resistor logic (DR), Diode Transistor (DT) logic using both positive and negative logic but ultimately concluded that there were going to be too many parts to be a simple solution for fabrication. Since I already have a long stick of small
leadless carrier PAL chips and 5V linear regulators, it would actually be simpler/cheaper for me to design a circuit using PAL chip an RC delay and a output FET to either control another standard BOSH relay or replace the BOSH and do the whole thing and control the current to the ignition coil directly.

I did receive some 3.5-26V make delay relays from ebay but they are FET type inputs so would not work in the simple relay configurations contemplated earlier.

Bottom line for now is the option #2 mod works and I have too much else to get done (finishing my GS1100ED) to worry about it anymore. There ultimately may be little benefit to auto mating this as startup seems to be optimized by controlling the coils manually so a simple delay would not be best even if it is easiest from a user standpoint. I have shelved this for now. If you get it to work, let us know how a fixed delay works.

Posplayr

[Matchless]

posplayr,
Thanks, it sounds if you have really tried. I was hoping you would come up with a working solution we could use.

If anyone else has any interest in this, especially someone with some electronic knowledge, just email me and I will gladly send you my untried schematic and PC board diagram for a possible solution to automate the process that posplayr has nicely summed up earlier. Unfortunately I will not get around to trying this for a while.

[srsupertrap]

Re: Matchless & Posplayr

Too much work spent and not much progress . . .

Bottom line for now is the option #2 mod works and I have too much else to get done (finishing my GS1100ED) to worry about it anymore. There ultimately may be little benefit to auto mating this as startup seems to be optimized by controlling the coils manually so a simple delay would not be best even if it is easiest from a user standpoint. I have shelved this for now. If you get it to work, let us know how a fixed delay works.
Posplayr

I think Option #2 is the best bet for the majority of GSer's with big bore motors and other high performance mods; it's fairly straight forward to implement with some careful soldering.

I have a unrelated tool question which you guys probably know being EE's & Tech's and such: Can I purchase a set of Terminal Pin Pushers to remove the electrical terminal connections from their respective GS terminal housings? This relates back to my first thread on the GS Forum which asked where can you find the same colored wire as the OEM harness. Well I found a used harness and I have been cleaning up my original harness ever since. If I was able to push the spring loaded pins out of the housings I could further reduce the number of splices. I know Amp makes a round set but the GS uses a combo of round and flat terminal ends.

Any suggestions?

[posplayr]

SrSupertrap

I think Option #2 is the best bet for the majority of GSer's with big bore motors and other high performance mods; it's fairly straight forward to implement with some careful soldering.

I agree, If I had nothing else to do, I might still pursue the autodelayed combo coil relay, but for now #2 is a good solution with plenty of flexibility. Glad it is working for you.

I have a unrelated tool question which you guys probably know being EE's & Tech's and such: Can I purchase a set of Terminal Pin Pushers to remove the electrical terminal connections from their respective GS terminal housings?

I have to do a minor (I hope) conversion (from GS1100EZ to GS1100ED) of the new harness I just bought. I dont know of any, have you checked Digikey or some other electronics supplier?
Let use know what you find out. I'm up to my ears in Por-15 at the moment.

I just looked at the harness. I was able to get the main pins out of seveal of the square connectors using a small screwdriver (like fixing glasses). The female pins really fill up the little connectors housing so you will need a thing a needle possibly to get thos out. More later

Por-playr (formerly Pospalyr)8-[

[Carter Turk]

The compression ratio is 10.25 to 1. The engine is a 1150 with MTC pistons and a Falicon SuperCrank in a 83 Kat frame.

I went for a ride and it seems to work, but still feels like the starter clutch in binding for a nano second.

[LarryT]

24 volts to the starter will stop this problem Busa guys do it all the time

[LarryT]

i did copied this on my dragbike worked great

[Spot1000Kat]

Easy mod to make high compression motors start easier

Hi Folks,
check out the last few posts on the Aussie kat forum topic below, I know a couple of dragbike racers who have done this small modification to the advance mechanism and it works great , retarded at start but still advances to where it should.

Basic description is :Take the cover off and move the advance mechanism by hand, mark where the swing weights hit and grind that bit out until you get more movement, you'll need to elongate the screw holes to permit greater retarding but still have full advance.

http://members.suzuki-katana.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=784

Cheers,

Spot.