Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why do modern bikes feel so precise?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Why do modern bikes feel so precise?

    For those of you that have ridden back to back a "modern" bike and your favorite GS, you surely noticed that the modern bike feels much taughter, more "in one piece".
    Most of us would just shrug their shoulders believing that "it's normal" every part of the bike has been improved over the years so what do you expect?
    I personally wasn't satisfied with this kind of answer and over the last two years I started modifying a first and then a second GS 1000 S with components coming from more recent bikes.
    First experiment: GSXR 11K front fork (RSU), monoshock rear swingarm, 17" wheels with radial tires.
    Search no further, this bike was now in the modern era
    As I changed all parameters at once except the frame, I could not pinpoint exactly what made the biggest improvement?
    Second experiment: same bike but with GSXR 11G/H fork , 18" wheels with radial tires.
    Result a large step backwards despite many hours spent on the front fork with stiffer springs and RaceTech gold valves.
    Third experiment: my other GS 1000 S with GSXR 11K front fork but with OEM 19" wheel with crossply tire and full OEM rear (shocks, 17" wheel with crossply tire).
    Result a very modern feel but with far too much trail and a mismatch between the front and rear suspension
    Fourth experiment: back to the first bike with full GSXR 11K suspension front and rear ( like in N°1) but with 18" wheels shod with radial tires.
    Result: very good just like in the first test.
    Bike is very stable and feels very taught at all times.
    My conclusion is the following:
    1) the frame ( at least for the GS 1000) plays almost no role
    2) the radial tires improve the feel a little but not enough to justify the modern feel.
    3) the suspension plays the major role and specifically the cartridge type fork when associated with a De Carbon type shock at the rear.

    Why is that?
    The modern suspensions control the damping by letting the oil flow through a series of shims that deflect when the oil forces it's way through.
    The GS bikes (and the first generation GSXRs) use an older principle that consists of letting the oil go through a small orifice.
    On the modern bike, by carefully tuning the shims that are mounted in a stack, you can create different damping laws.
    The law that is mostly used is called digressive because when the oil wants to move faster through the shims the resistance will increase at a slower rate than with a conventional shock absorber.
    In practice you get a shock absorber that strongly damps the slow motions of the bike while allowing the bumps to be filtered out.
    To convince yourself try shaking a modern bike up and down.
    You would believe that the result would be a very uncomfortable ride.
    Yet it's the exact contrary: the bike feels taught but not uncomfortable
    sigpicJohn Kat
    My bikes: CB 77, GS 1000 ST Cafe Racer with GSXR 1052 engine, GS 1000 ST, XR 41 Replica with GS 1085 engine,
    GS 1100 SZ Katana with GS 1135 EFF engine, KTM Superduke 1290 R 2020

    #2
    For the forks at least I think it's more the stiffness rather than the damping. Triple clamp offset can play a big role too, I'd be interested to know what the difference there was.
    Last edited by RichDesmond; 10-11-2013, 01:40 PM.
    '20 Ducati Multistrada 1260S, '93 Ducati 750SS, '01 SV650S, '07 DL650, '01 DR-Z400S, '80 GS1000S, '85 RZ350

    Comment


      #3
      Interesting. The RaceTech gold valves are supposed to give you that same digressive damping, just like the cartridge fork.
      Dogma
      --
      O LORD, be gracious to me; heal me, for I have sinned against you! - David

      Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense. - Carl Sagan

      --
      '80 GS850 GLT
      '80 GS1000 GT
      '01 ZRX1200R

      How to get a "What's New" feed without the Vortex, and without permanently quitting the Vortex

      Comment


        #4
        Thanks for posting your experiences. Very useful info. Thumbs up!

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Dogma View Post
          Interesting. The RaceTech gold valves are supposed to give you that same digressive damping, just like the cartridge fork.
          They help a LOT, but they are not the same thing.
          http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...tatesMap-1.jpg

          Life is too short to ride an L.

          Comment


            #6
            Sonic Springs or Race Tech springs and emulators definately really help with the old bikes!
            http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...ine=1352313915
            1979 GS1000

            Comment


              #7
              I don't really agree- I've ridden quite a few different bikes nothing newer than 2005 but none of them were as enjoyable as my GS's. I do agree that manufacturing has gotten better but it has gotten worse as well. The products produced today just are not built to last like these GS's were. These bikes were heavily over engineered. A big plus for those of us that love them. I get the same response from hot rodders about modern day muscle cars- meh- sure they have the HP and the CNC machining but very few if any will be on the road 40-50 years down the line. I have a 47 year old 283 SBC in my car right now and am very pleased with it's output. I can still rebore and rebuild it 3 more times. Something a modern day engine or motor bike will not be able to do.
              Not to mention how overpriced the modern day toys are. I'll stick with what I've got.
              Not because I'm not open minded, just because I know what last.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by tkent02 View Post
                They help a LOT, but they are not the same thing.
                I fully agree, a step in the right direction for sure but not a true replacement for a cartridge type fork
                sigpicJohn Kat
                My bikes: CB 77, GS 1000 ST Cafe Racer with GSXR 1052 engine, GS 1000 ST, XR 41 Replica with GS 1085 engine,
                GS 1100 SZ Katana with GS 1135 EFF engine, KTM Superduke 1290 R 2020

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by gsgeezer View Post
                  Sonic Springs or Race Tech springs and emulators definately really help with the old bikes!
                  Quite true!
                  I had both springs and emulators from RaceTech on my GSXR G/H fork.
                  It definitely helped but the result was not on par with a cartridge type fork
                  sigpicJohn Kat
                  My bikes: CB 77, GS 1000 ST Cafe Racer with GSXR 1052 engine, GS 1000 ST, XR 41 Replica with GS 1085 engine,
                  GS 1100 SZ Katana with GS 1135 EFF engine, KTM Superduke 1290 R 2020

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I'd love to slice 150 - 200lbs from both of my bricks!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by RichDesmond View Post
                      For the forks at least I think it's more the stiffness rather than the damping. Triple clamp offset can play a big role too, I'd be interested to know what the difference there was.
                      Sorry, it's not the stiffness as I tried .95 kg/mm springs in my GSXR G/H fork.
                      It helps for sure but it's not the answer...
                      The triple clamp offset will change the trail of the bike and thus the effort needed to point the bike in another direction.
                      It has no impact on how precise and taught the bike feels.
                      More trail gives the bike a truck like feel.
                      Exactly what I experienced with experiment N°3: a 19" wheel combined with a very small triple tree offset
                      sigpicJohn Kat
                      My bikes: CB 77, GS 1000 ST Cafe Racer with GSXR 1052 engine, GS 1000 ST, XR 41 Replica with GS 1085 engine,
                      GS 1100 SZ Katana with GS 1135 EFF engine, KTM Superduke 1290 R 2020

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by ptexotik View Post
                        I'd love to slice 150 - 200lbs from both of my bricks!
                        You'd be surprised at how light my GS 1000 feels with the 18" wheels and the full GSXR 11K suspension.
                        Here in setup N°3 probably the lightest but...without the cartridge type fork.

                        The same with the later fork and the 11R88 wheels ( from Posplayr)
                        sigpicJohn Kat
                        My bikes: CB 77, GS 1000 ST Cafe Racer with GSXR 1052 engine, GS 1000 ST, XR 41 Replica with GS 1085 engine,
                        GS 1100 SZ Katana with GS 1135 EFF engine, KTM Superduke 1290 R 2020

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by John Kat View Post
                          You'd be surprised at how light my GS 1000 feels with the 18" wheels and the full GSXR 11K suspension....
                          Obligatory pedantry: Suzuki made an 11 liter Gixxer?
                          Dogma
                          --
                          O LORD, be gracious to me; heal me, for I have sinned against you! - David

                          Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense. - Carl Sagan

                          --
                          '80 GS850 GLT
                          '80 GS1000 GT
                          '01 ZRX1200R

                          How to get a "What's New" feed without the Vortex, and without permanently quitting the Vortex

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by tkent02 View Post
                            They help a LOT, but they are not the same thing.
                            Agreed, they are a definite upgrade but no substitution for USD front ends

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by jwhelan65 View Post
                              Agreed, they are a definite upgrade but no substitution for USD front ends
                              Or modern cartridge type right side up ones.
                              http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...tatesMap-1.jpg

                              Life is too short to ride an L.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X