battery problem?

[gs850cafe]

i have a newer ricks stator, shindigen r/r good connections etc...

did the stator tests and so on...battert wong go past 13v at rev.

battery has never had a tender etc through winters, been hard winter starts etc etc...its been dead a few times and jumped it an took off...

is it possible the battery wont charge past the 13.04 v ?

 

[almarconi]

If the battery is questionable then replace it. From what you have described it is possible the battery is damaged. You should use a known good battery when doing charging system tests.

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

How old and what type of battery?


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[posplayr]

We keep relearning the same stuff over and over

Or not

 

[gs850cafe]

Hi,

How old and what type of battery?


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

just a crappy duralast... maybe 5 months old

and posplayr.. the reason i ask is cause not all of us can shell out 50 bucks for a battery...in my case in broke, i have to borrow money to even eat half the time..so yea if im not sure about something i ask

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

If properly initialized, even a cheap lead-acid battery should last 2-3 years. Some batteries don't like to be completely discharged (like AGM?) and will never perform properly afterwards. Can you take the battery to a shop or auto parts store and have it load tested?

What type of battery do you have? Lead acid? Sealed (no maintenence) lead acid? AGM? Lithium Ion? Nickel Cadmium?

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[posplayr]

just a crappy duralast... maybe 5 months old

and posplayr.. the reason i ask is cause not all of us can shell out 50 bucks for a battery...in my case in broke, i have to borrow money to even eat half the time..so yea if im not sure about something i ask

I'm referring more to the fact that you claim to have done all tests but the battery will not charge beyond 13.0 and you donot understand why. The stator pages phase A require a good battery to perform the test, so unless you determined if you have a good battery then throw out that.

Do you know how to test for a good battery without having to buy one

In the old days you could actually take absttery to a shop znd they will test it for you with a load tester.


Have you ever heard of a "Quick Test"?

 

[eil]

Lead-acid batteries don't like to be deeply discharged. If you've done it a few times, or if it's sat discharged for some time, it might be shot.

Take it to any auto parts store and they'll check it for free. (Although I'm not 100% sure they can test smaller powersports batteries without blowing them up, so ask first.)

Or buy a load tester from HF for $15 and never be unsure again.

 

[posplayr]

Lead-acid batteries don't like to be deeply discharged. If you've done it a few times, or if it's sat discharged for some time, it might be shot.

Take it to any auto parts store and they'll check it for free. (Although I'm not 100% sure they can test smaller powersports batteries without blowing them up, so ask first.)

Or buy a load tester from HF for $15 and never be unsure again.

Without spending any money and using his Volt meter he can do a "Quick Test" in 5 minutes.

 

[Gorminrider]

...yes, you've beat your battery up, by not maintaining it through the winter. It's not possible for a useable motorcycle battery to only show 13.04 volts while being properly charged.
Battery "Useable"?
...The worst:The battery is badly sulfated, -cell could be shorted out, making it a 10 Volt battery because each cell =2 volts. "at rest" (after 12-24 hours disconnected)....This battery will overtax your charging system, because it badly wants to make it to be +/- 14.8 volts and it never will so it's always running at max output. That partly explains why you need a decent battery-you can make the problem worse. (maybe feel the regulator for a quick test. really Hot? STOP!!!(or too late...)

But, if the battery is just partly sulfated (almost guaranteed, given your OP), your "13.04" volts points to
A) a crummy voltmeter(test it on other known dc voltages)
B) something wrong with the charging system...
You should be able to run a headlight and brakelight without the motor running for a period. You should be start the bike AFTER that. Otherwise, you should not go further than around the block.
Poor folk need be clever. Too late now, but you can make a suitable trickle charger from many ac/dc power adapters.

 

[eil]

Without spending any money and using his Volt meter he can do a "Quick Test" in 5 minutes.

Not strictly true... a bad battery can still read 12V with a voltmeter. In order to get an accurate reading, you need to put a significant current load on it as well, which is what the $15 HF battery tester does.

Unless you're talking about some other kind of test that uses a voltmeter but also puts a load on the battery.

 

[posplayr]

Not strictly true... a bad battery can still read 12V with a voltmeter. In order to get an accurate reading, you need to put a significant current load on it as well, which is what the $15 HF battery tester does.

Unless you're talking about some other kind of test that uses a voltmeter but also puts a load on the battery.

" Quick Test" http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?p=1272192#post1272192

The first thing is to put a standard GS load on the battery by turning the key on.

 

[posplayr]

...yes, you've beat your battery up, by not maintaining it through the winter. It's not possible for a useable motorcycle battery to only show 13.04 volts while being properly charged.
Battery "Useable"?
...The worst:The battery is badly sulfated, -cell could be shorted out, making it a 10 Volt battery because each cell =2 volts. "at rest" (after 12-24 hours disconnected)....This battery will overtax your charging system, because it badly wants to make it to be +/- 14.8 volts and it never will so it's always running at max output. That partly explains why you need a decent battery-you can make the problem worse. (maybe feel the regulator for a quick test. really Hot? STOP!!!(or too late...)

But, if the battery is just partly sulfated (almost guaranteed, given your OP), your "13.04" volts points to
A) a crummy voltmeter(test it on other known dc voltages)
B) something wrong with the charging system...
You should be able to run a headlight and brakelight without the motor running for a period. You should be start the bike AFTER that. Otherwise, you should not go further than around the block.
Poor folk need be clever. Too late now, but you can make a suitable trickle charger from many ac/dc power adapters.

one way or another he is going to need to charge the battery before testing the battery any further or anything else. He could have at least three different situations given his 13.04V reading

• Battery charge could be low with a good battery
• Battery could be sulfated bad battery
• The charging system just not charging.

He needs to charge the battery and see if he can pull current from it without the voltage dropping appreciable. He can do that with the "Quick Test"

 

[Gorminrider]

...yes, I should have phrased it better( re:It's not possible for a useable motorcycle battery to only show 13.04 volts while being properly charged.)
...I was hearing the OP's ..."is it possible the battery wont charge past the 13.04 v ?"

I think these little batteries, say what-10 to14ah capacity "starting" batteries -should reach the regulated voltage pretty quick, given the charging system's full output, even quicker in a crummy battery.



added: now, if the OP was using a CAR battery, then, I think, he'd be likely see lower voltages for a longer time...

 

[posplayr]

...yes, I should have phrased it better( re:It's not possible for a useable motorcycle battery to only show 13.04 volts while being properly charged.)
...I was hearing the OP's ..."is it possible the battery wont charge past the 13.04 v ?"

I think these little batteries, say what-10 to14ah capacity "starting" batteries -should reach the regulated voltage pretty quick, given the charging system's full output, even quicker in a crummy battery.



added: now, if the OP was using a CAR battery, then, I think, he'd be likely see lower voltages for a longer time...

Based on some measurements I did a few years back when I was testing various R/R's , my GS1100E charging system produced about 11 amps that went to the GS electrical system with about 3 amps going to the charge the battery at 14.5 V. That is somewhere around a total of 14 amps.

3 amps for a 14 amp-hr battery is C=0.21. Looking at this chart

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11129&d=1283969167

Reading from the graph, if you are at a 14.25V setpoint at the battery and C/5 (3 amps) with 80% charge you still need to charge 20% of the capacity which would take 1 hour of riding. If the battery state is lower (say 50%), and with only C/5 available (3 charging amps), the battery voltage will stay below 13.5V. This is the reason the stator pages require a good battery to do the test. It can only supply 3 amps and so the battery charging voltage is very dependent on having the battery above 80% charged capacity.


Compared to an alternator that is pretty poor charging performance. The alternator can change the field strength and step up the charging rate to bring the state of charge up to 100% much faster.

 

[Gorminrider]

mmm. Interesting graph- I read it as two sections, the upper "Charging Rate" being the only one mildly pertinent here. It is mildly pertinent because a the voltages assumed in the graph are open-ended, while Charging Current is regulated in the example lines drawn.
That said,IMO, even at a low charge rate ,a charging battery with a regulated charging potential of 14.8 volts does not STAY at 13v,as long as it is "charging". It will stop charging when potentials are equal.Simply put, nowhere do the lines in the graph "flatten", at 13 volts
Assuming all is well in the charging system, 14.4 volt is the only " regulated" "flatline" voltage the OP will see.

 

[Guest]

My Batteries

My Batteries

I live in a mild climate. I don't take very good care of my batteries. I have had the acid filled.and gel sealed. Between 2 & 3 years is about as long as they last. My car batteries last about 6 to7 years. Anyway, what my bike batteries will do is start cranking the engine over slowly. So I put the charger on them and they pop right back up and look good. During use they drop in power and will not hold a charge. I only buy the between 40 and 60 dollar batteries. My bike starts instantly if the battery is good. I know a bad battery will do weird things and have you chasing your tail. I have a 2008 Roadstar I just replaced the battery in it. I bought it used a few months ago. It crapped out the same way as the GS1000E.

 

[posplayr]

mmm. Interesting graph- I read it as two sections, the upper "Charging Rate" being the only one mildly pertinent here. It is mildly pertinent because a the voltages assumed in the graph are open-ended, while Charging Current is regulated in the example lines drawn.
That said,IMO, even at a low charge rate ,a charging battery with a regulated charging potential of 14.8 volts does not STAY at 13v,as long as it is "charging". It will stop charging when potentials are equal.Simply put, nowhere do the lines in the graph "flatten", at 13 volts
Assuming all is well in the charging system, 14.4 volt is the only " regulated" "flatline" voltage the OP will see.

The title of the article that was referenced in the "Quick Test" post and which includes the subject plot.

Lead-Acid Battery State of Charge vs.Voltage

http://www.scubaengineer.com/documents/lead_acid_battery_charging_graphs.pdf

Reading the Curves
The data presented here on the graphs was generated
from our set of Trojan L-16W deep cycle lead-acid
batteries. Each Trojan L-16 battery is composed of
three series connected, 350 Ampere-hour, lead-acid
cells. The graphs and the data here relates to six of
these lead-acid cells in series forming a 12 Volt battery.
Those of you using a 24 Volt system with twelve leadacid cells in series must multiply the voltage in the text
and on the charts by two. The voltage versus state of
charge (SOC) profiles will match those of similarly
constructed cells. Other types of lead acid cells, like car
batteries, lead-calcium cells, and “RV deep cycle”
batteries will have different charge/discharge curves. I
offer these graphs as examples of what to look for with
your battery. While specific voltage vs. SOC points will
vary from battery type to battery type, the shape and
relationship of the curves is similar for all deep cycle
lead-acid technologies

The family of curves are interpreted as the operating point of a lead-acid battery for a terminal voltage , current pair given the battery's current SOC. Of course as a battery is charged of depleted the SOC charges. However, a quick(3 sec) 6 amp discharge to a 14 amp-hr battery will not appreciable change the SOC. Understanding how terminal voltage is affected by SOC when under current load is the basis for steps 1 and 2 of the Quick test. Understanding the battery charging characteristics provides much understanding on how the GS charging system operates.

Therefore and to whatever the extent that these deep-cycle battery characteristics reflect the battery you might have in your GS I will interpret the chart as applying to a GS as follows:

From the chart..... in order to get a battery that is 50% discharged to exceed 13.5 V the charging current must well exceed C/5!!! Based on a cursory perusal of the spacing of other lines of constant charge rate, I would guess 1/2 the spread between C/2.5 and C/5 which is C/3.75

For the non-attentive, C/3.75 for a 14 Amp-Hr battery is 14/3.75=3.73 amps. This is very close to the maximum GS charging current previously measured and reported by me.

Therefore it should be patently obvious to even the most casual observer that a battery with a low state of charge will preclude the GS charging system from reaching the normal charging voltages as the current limited charging of the GS will only support lower voltages at lower states of charge.

Further, we can also see that the GS charging system has little capability to charge a battery even when the SOC is relatively high. A typical R/R voltage regulation set-point is specified to be approximately 14.5V. In practice many older and unmaintained charging system will fail to even provide 14.25V at the battery terminals. To see the impact of this low charging voltage we simply need to refer to the chart again........

From the figure we see that it takes C/5 charging amps (2.8A for a GS 14 amp-hr battery) for an 80% State of Charge (SOC) to get to 14.25 volts. This is also close to the peak charging current (3 amps). So ignoring charging and conversion heating losses in the battery it is clear that a C/5 charge rate will take at least 1 hr to get from the 80% to 100% SOC.

The curves are quite relevant to interpreting SOC from voltage measurements under known current draw conditions. The authors quite rightly state:

The bottom line is that the internal resistance of all
lead-acid cells changes with the cell’s state of charge.
This characteristic gives the lead-acid reaction its
particular shape or signature on the voltage vs. SOC
graphs. This signature is unique — very different from
alkaline cells whose electrolyte resistance remains
constant regardless of SOC. The shape of the lead-acid
curves makes it possible to use a voltmeter to
determine a battery’s state of charge.

It should be no surprise that the measurements in steps #1 and step #2 of the "Quick Test" are specifically predicated on the characteristics of Volts and SOC described in the article.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?p=1272192#post1272192

QUICK TEST Diagnosis Summary:

Basically Step #1 and #2 is making sure the battery is charged and in good health. The drop should be about 0.5 volts for normal headlamp and coil load (without cranking the starter). Anymore than 0.5V drop indicates the battery is weak even though the static voltage is OK (12.7-12.8V)

 

[Gorminrider]

I live in a mild climate. I don't take very good care of my batteries. I have had the acid filled.and gel sealed. Between 2 & 3 years is about as long as they last. My car batteries last about 6 to7 years. Anyway, what my bike batteries will do is start cranking the engine over slowly. So I put the charger on them and they pop right back up and look good. During use they drop in power and will not hold a charge. I only buy the between 40 and 60 dollar batteries. My bike starts instantly if the battery is good. I know a bad battery will do weird things and have you chasing your tail. I have a 2008 Roadstar I just replaced the battery in it. I bought it used a few months ago. It crapped out the same way as the GS1000E.

I think you summed it up pretty well. I do best with cheap-but-not-the-very-cheapest in all my batteries...I've had exceptions to my rule, but not enough to make me buy the very best or the very worst.... and the $ seems to work out near the same.