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Need help regarding points adjustment

  • Thread starter Thread starter Broncoman75
  • Start date Start date
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Broncoman75

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So I finally got this 77 550 that I bought a few months back put together enough to try to start it up. It did, but was only running on cylinder 1 and 3. I dread taking the carbs back off after the ordeal of wrestling them into the airbox, so I started checking the ignition. When I pull the plugs and crank it each cylinder is sparking, but the spark looking kind of weak so I decided to adjust the points. I was following the procedure in the manual and set the gap first and then was trying to fine tune the opening point per the attached instructions.
Finally here is where my question comes in When I check for the points breakers to open with the timing pointer at the "F" mark the 2&3 breaker loses continuity to ground as it should, but the 1&4 does not. So basically does this point to a short somewhere else? If so where should I start to look? I don't think I am doing the test wrong. I am unsure where to go from here. If a condenser goes bad will it cause the condition I describe?

Does the position of the engine kill switch affect the test above?

Secondly. I know points are cheap and these ones look in good condition, but in attempt to eliminate unknowns I am tempted to ditch the points and go with a dyna s pickup, is there anything else that is required for the upgrade, or does the dyna pickup just plug in and go?
 
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tom203 said:
Have you see this link about points setting ?

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/storagecliff/images/electrical_odd-n-ends.html#A18

Yes, condensers go bad and some are made bad.
Click to expand...

Yes I nave read that, it is pretty much the procedure I am using, except I am not turning the ign switch on because I am not using a test light I am using a DMM set to beep when I have continuity. What I was trying to explain is that the white wire to the "left" or 1-4 breaker point never loses continuity to ground even though I can see it open up so I am suspecting a short somewhere else in the system and I was hoping someone could suggest a point to start looking. I guess I'll start by unhooking the white wire from the point and checking continuity to ground to test whether it is somehow grounding elsewhere in the system, or if it could be at the post which mounts the wire to the breaker itself... That or remove the condenser and make sure its not grounding there either..
 
I am doing the same thing today, and tried beep mode, but my Fluke meter continues to beep when the point are open/closed = 19 ohm / 1 ohm. ( because of the capacitor ?)
try it with your meter off "beep" mode ... just watch for the ohms to jump up.
 
make sure the little screw that holds the wire on isn't grounding out somehow. it should have a tiny non-conductive washer on it that has to be properly positioned.

i usually disconnect all the wires from the points when adjusting. then you can use the beeping continuity test on your multimeter.
 
Using a multimeter or test light works fine as long as you pull some fuses or disconnect the white and black wires to the coils.

I, like you, scratched my head for a good while as to why I had continuity with the points visibly open- on both sides. I was like "ah! I have a short to ground. It's beer time..."

Traced the "short to ground" all the way up the white/black wires, THROUGH the coils to the orange 12v feed, from there to the fuse block, and then to one fused circuit. Traced that circuit all the way up through the headlight connections, traced it to my indicator lights, took the dash apart, and found out that the short to ground traced to my oil pressure and neutral lights. Hmm. The bulbs worked.

Get this, the bike was indeed in neutral, and since the engine wasn't running, it had no oil pressure. Both the oil pressure switch and the neutral indicator switch were doing EXACTLY what they were supposed to do, and without the +12v to those bulbs, the ground from those switches went all the way back to the fuse box, out to the coils, through the coils, and down to the points.

I wasted like two days tracing that little "problem."

My bike runs fine, starts fine, and charges fine.
 
850 Combat said:
You do have one coil to plugs 1 and 4 and the other to 2 and 3?
Click to expand...

yep. I double triple checked that last night. all the plugs were getting spark when i tested them, but I was concerned with the strength of spark, and possibly the timing..
 
lemonshindig said:
Using a multimeter or test light works fine as long as you pull some fuses or disconnect the white and black wires to the coils.

I, like you, scratched my head for a good while as to why I had continuity with the points visibly open- on both sides. I was like "ah! I have a short to ground. It's beer time..."

Traced the "short to ground" all the way up the white/black wires, THROUGH the coils to the orange 12v feed, from there to the fuse block, and then to one fused circuit. Traced that circuit all the way up through the headlight connections, traced it to my indicator lights, took the dash apart, and found out that the short to ground traced to my oil pressure and neutral lights. Hmm. The bulbs worked.

Get this, the bike was indeed in neutral, and since the engine wasn't running, it had no oil pressure. Both the oil pressure switch and the neutral indicator switch were doing EXACTLY what they were supposed to do, and without the +12v to those bulbs, the ground from those switches went all the way back to the fuse box, out to the coils, through the coils, and down to the points.

I wasted like two days tracing that little "problem."

My bike runs fine, starts fine, and charges fine.
Click to expand...
Ah. so are you supposed to unhook the black and white wires from the coils? it doesnt mention this in the manual? and why was the white wire grounding out through the coil, but not the black wire?
Regardless I unhooked the white wire at the coil and then it wasn't reading like it was grounding out, so I was able to adjust both points to open at the F mark finally.
After getting the points gapped and timing set I tried to start it up, but still not wanting to run well. I am wondering if my battery is weak now though, so I threw it on the charger and I'll do some voltage tests at the battery and at the coils and see how things are looking...
 
Eli69 said:
make sure the little screw that holds the wire on isn't grounding out somehow. it should have a tiny non-conductive washer on it that has to be properly positioned.

i usually disconnect all the wires from the points when adjusting. then you can use the beeping continuity test on your multimeter.
Click to expand...

thanks for the tip. I ended up disconnecting everything and making sure the condensers weren't grounding out, and checking that the little screws were'nt grounding out.. The beep mode on my DMM worked fine once I disconnected the white wire at the coil. I guess I should do the coil tests while I am at it to make sure they check out ok.
Oh the joys of buying a bike in pieces and trying to rehab it :pray:
 
It is possible that you have a bad coil, yes.

But it is just as possible that something else is causing your bike to run poorly. Like carburetion and valves.
 
lemonshindig said:
It is possible that you have a bad coil, yes.

But it is just as possible that something else is causing your bike to run poorly. Like carburetion and valves.
Click to expand...

Well the valves are good, I measured all the clearances when I was reassembling the top end and I don't know where I wrote the measurments but they were all within spec. Carburation on the otherhand, could definitely use some tweaking as far as adjustments and possibly more cleaning, but its not running well enough to start tuning anything. I havent had time to do any more electrical testing, but I would like to check that off the troubleshooting list to at least eliminate errors.
 
Check the voltage to the coils. Should be 11.5 or higher.

On my carbs, the base settings are 3/4 turns out on the fuel screw, and 1.5 turns out on the air screw for each carb.

Being out of sync will cause problems too. Although a good "bench sync" which is done visually should be enough to make it run.
 
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lemonshindig said:
It is possible that you have a bad coil, yes.

But it is just as possible that something else is causing your bike to run poorly. Like carburetion and valves.
Click to expand...

If it runs on 1 and 3, would it be the 1 and 4 coil that is bad, or would it be the 2 and 3 coil? Which would you suspect first?
 
850 Combat said:
If it runs on 1 and 3, would it be the 1 and 4 coil that is bad, or would it be the 2 and 3 coil? Which would you suspect first?
Click to expand...

Oh wow. I missed that part.

If it runs on 1 & 3, and you're SURE that you have the spark plug wires on the correct plugs:

Swap the coils. Plug black to white and white to black up at the coils, and then swap the 1/4 wires for the 2/3 wires. Start the bike. Is it still running on 1 & 3? Or is it now running on something else?

How do you know it's only running on 1 and 3? Are you spraying the header pipes with water to see which ones vaporize it? That's how I do it.

If swapping the coils makes no difference, I would bet money that you've got clogged carbs 1 & 3, OR intake leaks on those two. Intake leaks that are bad enough will make the cylinder run so lean that it won't fire. The o-rings between the carb boots and the cylinder head are notorious for going bad after sitting for a decade...

A note about carb cleaning:

It is widely accepted here that if you did not do a full dis-assembly, overnight soak, spray out the passages before reassembly, and use new o-rings, that your carbs will still be dirty. Just spraying the aerosol crap through the passages doesn't do the trick, even if you can see a stream coming out the other side. I learned this lesson the hard way, so have dozens of other people, you HAVE to soak them, AND THEN spray the passages out.

Good luck
-Matt
 
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850 Combat said:
If it runs on 1 and 3, would it be the 1 and 4 coil that is bad, or would it be the 2 and 3 coil? Which would you suspect first?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess thats why I'm starting to suspect carburation issues, as I double checked the cables are going to the right cylinders, and that coils are supplying to 1&4 and 2&3 respectively. I havent had time to mess with this, but I'll do some voltage and ohm readings tonight and see what we come up with.
Thanks
 
Okay, so I tested the voltage at the black and white wires coming out of the coils, both were 12.2v with 12.4v at the battery terminals. Then I swapped the wires from 1&4 and 2&3 but the same cylinders were still not getting the pipes hot, so I guess I'll be taking the carbs back out for further cleaning and inspection. I have the o-ring kits already and did the carb boot orings on the head already, just need to double clean them and make sure the float levels are adjusted and clean and go through everything more thoroughly again.

Thanks for all the ignition lessons guys, hopefully this thing will be running soon.
 
Soak them overnight!

You don't have to use carb soak. I used about 5 quarts of acetone.

But soak them overnight. Instant headache solution.

-Matt
 
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