R/R Replaced Now Battery Draining

[duaneage]

Like Kool Aid says, if it's on the net it's true

Having a lot of ground connections on one bolt leads to bonding where instead of the devices being common ground, they develop currents between each other causing problems.

The frame, because it's a large metal object, is a perfect reference point. A smallish bolt is not.

 

[cowboyup3371]

Like Kool Aid says, if it's on the net it's true

Having a lot of ground connections on one bolt leads to bonding where instead of the devices being common ground, they develop currents between each other causing problems.

The frame, because it's a large metal object, is a perfect reference point. A smallish bolt is not.

Does this bonding still occur when that single bolt is attached to the frame itself? I have three grounds that go to a mounting bracket on the frame and then the R/R going to the battery- post. Should I instead try to find different spots for each ground wire in that location?

 

[tom203]

Does this bonding still occur when that single bolt is attached to the frame itself? I have three grounds that go to a mounting bracket on the frame and then the R/R going to the battery- post. Should I instead try to find different spots for each ground wire in that location?

Don't worry about it, your method is fine. Introducing the term "bonding" is going to confuse lots of folks. I usually associate the word with AC wiring where you ensure that the neutral and ground wires are bonded to the main entrance panel, i.e. the fuse box both for low resisitance to loads and safety concerns.
While I agree that the bike frame is a good ground, it's cobbled together from many parts and has higher resistance compared to copper wiring stringing electrical devices together.

 

[Killer2600]

You guys must have started your friday/weekend indulging early typing all this silliness.

Don't worry about it, your method is fine. Introducing the term "bonding" is going to confuse lots of folks. I usually associate the word with AC wiring where you ensure that the neutral and ground wires are bonded to the main entrance panel, i.e. the fuse box both for low resisitance to loads and safety concerns.
While I agree that the bike frame is a good ground, it's cobbled together from many parts and has higher resistance compared to copper wiring stringing electrical devices together.

I tend to disagree, the frame is a great ground - much better than a copper wire because it offers less resistance and alot of conductive area. The problem with frame grounds is connection points can go bad and no one really knows the exact path the current is going so fixing issues is less direct and typically goes "clean all your grounds" or "add a ground or move your ground point"

There's nothing wrong with so called "bonded grounds," the only time you'll have an issue is when the ground connection goes or is bad. No different than putting grounds next to each other. On a professional level you wouldn't share a ground connection purely to avoid liability for possibly disturbing and messing up something you didn't install. It's when you ground devices to multiple points that you get stray currents called "ground loops" that can make things go all funny. Whenever you wire a device you want all your grounds to connect to the vehicle ground at one point if possible.

 

[Riding Again]

Like Kool Aid says, if it's on the net it's true

Having a lot of ground connections on one bolt leads to bonding where instead of the devices being common ground, they develop currents between each other causing problems.

The frame, because it's a large metal object, is a perfect reference point. A smallish bolt is not.

I think that's what happened with that instrumentation I mentioned.

Today, I continue after a pause for valve shimming .

 

[posplayr]

The number of staunch opinions from people who appear to have little clue of how wrong they are is bewildering . I can only do so much and this is all I am going to say.........

In the simplest of terms (as required to understand grounding on a motorcycle) I wrote the following to describe the primary issues.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1610675&postcount=7

The primary thing to keep in mind is that all currents supplied by the R/R (+) (to the electrical/battery system) have to return to the R/R(-) . That means that you need to provide a good current return paths for the following currents(to get back to the R/R(-):

1. harness current return path is the black/white harness wire (i don't see you having this connected to the r/r(-). These are normally the ring lugs attached to the harness connected one under the battery box mount and one under the solenoid mount. This sometimes confuses people as these ring lugs actually have current flowing in opposite directions. The ring lug attached to the battery box is to pickup any return currents from electrical devices (e.g. ignitors) and get that current to flow back to the harness and then out the other ring lug to where the R/R(-) is. So you need to make sure that there is a Harness ring lug (with B/W wire)attached to the R/R(-).
2. battery charging current return path - I don't see this you should have a wire direct from the battery(-) to r/r(-)
3. frame current return paths - you are good there as you have a wire direct from the r/r(-) to the frame
4. engine block current return paths - you are good there as the current will either go from engine block to battery or engine block to frame where you will return via #2 or #3 above respectively

So anybody that doesn't agree with the above should go back and rethink what they think they know about electricity :-s (go back to BASIC ELECTRICITY 000; to find out what a electrical circuit is)

For those who are remaining (those that have passed BASIC ELECTRICITY 000 and are ready for Grounding 101) Given the above, the primary issue to concern yourself with is how to combine these 4 return current sources to get them back to the R/R(-). The answer is somewhat based on the physical layout of your R/R, Harness and where the frame and battery are with respect to the R/R. For simplicity I will assume any currrent in the engine block gets back either through the battery cable or the frame so I will drop that distinction for the moment and only deal with three current returns trying to get to the R/R (-) .

As far as single point grounding (SPG) is concerned, the ideal for combining the currents is at a single point on the shortest wire to the R/R as possible. That is because the currents have to be combined and you don't want to combine and then run all of the return current through a lot of thin wires. The biggest problem is in voltage drops between the R/R and the Battery and voltage upsets to charging. You also have to maintain these three return paths otherwise they will find some other path to getting back to the R/R.



So while not absolutely required, the most straight forward is to tie everything together at a single point which does not require increasing the length of the R/R(-) return wire but rather keeps it short. The following 4 options exist(see attached figure):

1. I choose the R/R mounting point to accomplish a single point ground (SPG)connection as it gives me a metal to metal contact and I can torque down the bolt to hold all the wires together to maintain good physical contact with little danger of it loosening. I can minimize the length of wire on the R/R(-) and for the Compufire SERIES R/R the the R/R case itself is the R/R(-) so the current doesn't even have to go through the black return wire and so teh wire is not even required.
2. Mounting all four to a plastic part will also work but the plastic is softer and the torque on the screw can loosen and then all the ground returns are compromised. You could mount them to any other bolt on the side plate
3. You could equivalently bolt them all together on the frame somewhere but if you are adding more wire or more connections to the R/R(-) lead in order to accomplish this then it is not as desireable. You will need to add another B/W from the harness. On the positive side if you do this then you can leave off the Frame to R/R(-) wire as you are are already on the frame.
4. A final variation to #1 is even leaving out the ground wire from the harness if you know it already has a good contact to another point on the side plate. This is where I just go ahead and combine things (Option #1) so I don't inadvertently forget this return path.

One last comment for anybody that sneaked in here without passing BASIC ELECTRICITY: The frame is NOT GROUND. It is only a path for current to return to its source. In this case the source is R/R(+) and the return path is to the R/R(-)

It seems as through some people describe the frame as being a ground as if it is somehow absorbing electrons. To them I say, go back to BASIC ELECTRICITY; Electrons flow in circuits they do not get absorbed in the frame. All Currents flowing into the frame are exiting the frame in equal amounts to return to the source. If your bike is charging then that source is the R/R , if not then the battery is providing some of the current.

Details here

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/cbsaunders/gs/gs_charging_system_health.pdf

If you look closely at the two installations you will see that both of the original OEM R/R's have a short R/R(-) wire with a ringlug for the mounting plate. The way that this picks up current from the harness is through the B/W harness ring lug that was mounted to the solenoid bolt. It is not just there to provide a ground for the solenoid, it is also for the current in the harness to get back to the R/R(-). Combining the SPG mounting points to a single bolt is just making the current paths more obvious and reducing potential corrosion issues. When the R/R(-) ring lug is sacked on top of the B/W harness ring lug the contact of the two brass ringlugs provides the lowest resistance short of soldering the wires together. This is one of the shortcomings and the original Suzuki electrical design. They relied on the harness ring lug to make good contact to the side painted plate through a mounting bolt and it's threads and then through the side plate to the R/R(-) ring lug hooked to yet another mounting bolt. You have two mounting bolts and two sets of ring lugs. Stacking the ringlugs at the R/R mounting bolt minimizes potential problems with corrosion. Obviously there is also dielectric grease used to reduce corrosion of the brass ring lugs.

 

[posplayr]

GS 1100ED factory grounds and Single Point Wiring mods

 

[Riding Again]

I've decided to start from the beginning and follow the bobber diagram. I found the two ring lugs and am going to those points. Much easier to start from a proven known. Thanks

It is an open resistance between the R/R case and the black ground wire. I believe this means that the only ground occurs by the black R/R wire.

 

[duaneage]

"The number of staunch opinions from people who appear to have little clue of how wrong they are is bewildering . "

Could not agree more, Jim.

 

[Killer2600]

The number of staunch opinions from people who appear to have little clue of how wrong they are is bewildering .

One last comment for anybody that sneaked in here without passing BASIC ELECTRICITY: The frame is NOT GROUND. It is only a path for current to return to its source. In this case the source is R/R(+) and the return path is to the R/R(-)

I hope I'm not one of those that you consider wrong.

But the frame is ground in a negative frame grounded vehicle, the motor case is also ground.

You over emphasize return paths to the regulator. While you can look at the regulator that way and mostly get it to work in reality the battery is the start and end of it all. The regulator merely charges the battery, it's job is that and that alone. While it can, it's purpose is not to run the bike hence why it's a bad idea to remove the battery from a running bike. The reason why it's not good to see the regulator as the source and return for electric while running is the battery makes up for draw the regulator can't supply like your bike running at idle with lights and all on and it also takes in the excess current the bike is not using - typically at speed.

Have your R/R connected well to the battery, then have your battery well connected to your electrical. That's how it's done.

I hope I passed basic electric and grounding 101, they gave me a degree after all.

 

[posplayr]

I hope I'm not one of those that you consider wrong.

But the frame is ground in a negative frame grounded vehicle, the motor case is also ground.

I don't know that that generalization applies to a GS. On a GS current returns are parially through the frame/engine and partially through the harness all returning current to the R/R(-). Regardless of how you want to think about it, thinking about it in any other way than how current flows will result in a flawed grounding approach (unless you are just lucky).

You over emphasize return paths to the regulator. While you can look at the regulator that way and mostly get it to work in reality the battery is the start and end of it all. The regulator merely charges the battery, it's job is that and that alone.

For a properly functioning charging system, there is positive "average current" flow into the the electrical system (10-14 amps) from the R/R of which the battery gets typically (0-3 amps). 0 amps is at idle, but by idling the bike up to 1500 RPM there is usually a positive current flow into the battery. Those are facts (I have measured it with a DC amp meter) regardless of what the designers intended or what the regulator is "supposed to do"..... So once the bike is running above idle the R/R output is the source of all "average electical" power.

While it can, it's purpose is not to run the bike hence why it's a bad idea to remove the battery from a running bike.

It is kind of a race condition, I would be most worried about either too much output voltage because the battery is not there or the stator being shorted too much because the battery is not there. It is just an unknown.

The reason why it's not good to see the regulator as the source and return for electric while running is the battery makes up for draw the regulator can't supply like your bike running at idle with lights and all on and it also takes in the excess current the bike is not using - typically at speed.

Have your R/R connected well to the battery, then have your battery well connected to your electrical. That's how it's done.

Well, yes but the "devil is in the details" of dealing with poor and corroding connections. This is the whole point to the discussion, what are "good connections"....


I hope I passed basic electric and grounding 101, they gave me a degree after all.

Stacking all ground returns to the same point at the shortest R/R(-) connection is fool proof and you don't really need to know anything else.

 

[Killer2600]

Stacking all ground returns to the same point at the shortest R/R(-) connection is fool proof and you don't really need to know anything else.

You can do it however you like and you can even set your idle to 1,500 but the rest of us on bikes typically don't roll that way.

 

[posplayr]

You can do it however you like and you can even set your idle to 1,500 but the rest of us on bikes typically don't roll that way.

So am I to assume you have no issues with the direct contradictions I identified in your prior statements? Specifically what the function of the R/R is?

 

[Killer2600]

So am I to assume you have no issues with the direct contradictions I identified in your prior statements? Specifically what the function of the R/R is?

I do but if your emphasis on making good connections between battery and regulator are as true as they sound then your accomplishing my agenda anyway. The only difference is if that connection should fall flat my method will run till I get home or the battery is drained, yours may leave you on the side of the road going through the stator papers. I don't have to fix your work so how you do it doesn't matter to me.

FTR the regulator is part of the charging system, thus it's purpose is simple - it charges the battery. Your starter, no matter how well connected, will not run off the regulator.

 

[posplayr]

I do but if your emphasis on making good connections between battery and regulator are as true as they sound then your accomplishing my agenda anyway. The only difference is if that connection should fall flat my method will run till I get home or the battery is drained, yours may leave you on the side of the road going through the stator papers. I don't have to fix your work so how you do it doesn't matter to me.

FTR the regulator is part of the charging system, thus it's purpose is simple - it charges the battery. Your starter, no matter how well connected, will not run off the regulator.

I don't know what method you are describing, or why it has an advantage over the Single Point grounding that I have been describing. What I describe is very straight forward and does nothing to reduce reliability:

1. As it reduces the number of connection from stock harness(i.e. the R/R(-) and the side plate B/W ground strap are co-located rather than being separated). That means the harness B/W return is only based on a current path through a stacked set of ring lugs.
2. Adds an additional wire from R/R(-) to battery (-) . This has been an accepted modification for several years here (I did not invent it). As the current return from battery(-) to R/R(-) on the stock harness involved several engine/frame/harness connections and grounding points.
3. Adds a redundant R/R(-) to frame ground ( This already exists in the B/W harness ring lug that attaches to a battery box mounting bolt but is often overlooked ).

So how is it that this is somehow less reliable?


As far as the R/R goes, it seems very strange and contradictory for you to characterize a R/R as "solely charging a battery" when the facts are that it provides 10 amps to the electrical systems and only 3-4 amps to the battery (at maximum output to the battery). I guess it suits your argument, but not much else.