Vesrah Gasket Set Failure

[themess]

I have no experience making gaskets, but I have five years making rubber sealing devices. When we introduced a new product for an OEM, Asian copy cats would have a look-alike on the market within a few months. Those parts were in no way equivalent to what we made. The problems with Brian's gaskets were probably from making them using the wrong materials. I'm guessing that the gasket set wasn't made by Vesrah, but by a different company, one with the same ethics as those who put melamine in infant formula or who made poisonous wall board. Supply chains can be long. Suzuki buys directly from the manufacturer, no warehouse or other supplier in between. The after market is more complex. Retailers look for the lowest price from distributors, and some distributor might buy their parts from other distributors. There are many opportunities to put crap in the supply chain.

[TooManyToys]

I usually just lurk here, but thought I’d jump into this discussion.

Up to last year I worked for Federal-Mogul as the vehicle testing manager for the friction group, with friends in other divisions like the sealing group that includes Fel-Pro, a gasket company many should know from the auto side. I’m also cert’ed as a master auto / truck / school bus / engine machinist in the ASE program, so unlike some managers / engineers, I’ve got a clue. F-M is a very large aftermarket supplier, but is also a supplier to the OE manufacturers as well.

The state of replacement auto and related industry parts is truly a mess. For about the last 8 years the aftermarket industry has been in a terrific (horrific?) price pressure mode, not only from customers but from OE manufacturers as well. This has caused many aftermarket suppliers to look to cheaper sources of components. Some aftermarket companies buy parts from a secondary source, private labeling the parts in their own boxes. If they made their own parts, in some cases to stay competitive they may have abandoned their tooling and equipment to purchase items that they no longer could competitively make. This also happens when tooling wears out, and you have to make a decision if it’s worth the capital to invest in new tooling for the market. With older vehicles, it may not be worth it due to overall sales, and then you go to the secondary manufacturing source.

Even the OE’s feel the pressure of replacement parts, and as an OE supplier, we were asked to source some of our parts from Asia or India to keep the dealers competitive to aftermarket sources. As stated in this thread, many people do not want to pay the higher dealer prices and go to the aftermarket. As I noted earlier, this has been going on for more then a half dozen years, not just with the current crisis.

A number of people have been talking about O-Rings that have failed, with some comments about heat, chemicals or age playing into the situation. I’ll throw out another concern, were the O-Rings made from the correct material? Rubber isn’t just rubber and many reading this also know it. Here is a chart from McMaster that is a good example to illustrate my point. Most likely the ABC Gasket Company is a stamping company that punches out gaskets from sheet material it buys, and it probably buys the O-Rings from an outside source. Hopefully the source always supplied the parts with the correct compound for the application. But maybe ABC went to a new, lower cost supplier who isn’t supplying what they said they would. If ABC Gasket wanted to test the rubber for the correct compound, it would probably cost them all the profit for a year on those kits just to see if the O-Rings were right.

One of the reasons that OE parts are costly is that the OE companies do test the supplier’s parts for compliance. The other thing I can tell you is that the manufacturing tolerances are different between OE and aftermarket, another reason for cost.

Now there are some aftermarket parts that are better then the OE parts they replace. The aftermarket can be a great place where a supplier does not have to go through six to twelve months of testing to prove out a component when it has experience that a similar product works better in another similar applications. A quick tooling change or material spec change can take care of this.

Another situation that I have to mention that is really growing are counterfeit parts. This first hit OE companies but is now just as prevalent for the aftermarket companies as well. The sophistication of small private companies to manufacture exact looking parts in exact looking packaging has become very, very good. OE suppliers have needed to go to levels were slight product imperfections are actually identification marks, not only on the boxes but also on the actual parts themselves. Aftermarket companies are following

Getting off the soapbox, a supplier mentioned in this thread may have had an issue without knowing it. And unfortunately the way that they will find out is from customer complaints, either private people or mechanics. Also unfortunately the only way for us to know if there are problems is threads like this. But then “we” are the testing source for the aftermarket company, at replacement part cost or no charge to them.

[bwringer]

Excellent info, "Toys"!

It's pretty obvious that the o-rings that failed in my gasket set were made from the wrong material. And compared side by side with OEM items, they are obviously poorly dimensioned and molded.


I've found lots of differences between aftermarket parts quality for cars, too, because of the factors you mention. Many people just want to slap the cheapest possible part in there and hope it makes it down the driveway.

The extremely cheap Valucraft brake parts at Autozone, for example, scare the heck out of me. This is not the place to skimp like that, but lots of people do.

[TooManyToys]

Thanks. But Tom's comments precided mine. And he doesn't get as wordy.

[themess]

Thanks. But Tom's comments precided mine. And he doesn't get as wordy.

(I also worked for Federal Mogul, in their Sealing Products Division, from 88 through 93.)

[49er]

Great info guys, thanks.

So, do we stick with OEM, paying more but still risk getting counterfeit products, or go with aftermarket and increase the risk of inferior products?

I guess if gasket sets are offered at considerably lower prices than the median, you should remain sceptical/steer clear of them.

Not a very comforting situation for engine rebuilders, that's for sure!

[49er]

It's been a while, but the 850 is now back on the road. I decided not to do a full strip down, as it still has only 87,000 kms aboard.

Here's a pic of the Vesrah head gasket and the controversial cam chain tunnel
o-ring.


You can see the shape that resulted in it's poor sealing. The oil seepage around #2 pot has caused the gasket material to break down, to a point where it would eventually have failed.

And the pic of the o-ring gasket area that failed.

I did find this area to have a 0.002" out of true at the apex surface. The gasket material has started to fray/dissolve in this area. The tear drop o-ring was distorted and allowing oil to directly contact this area.

All surfaces needed checking. I found very little warppage or distortion, but the cylinder surfaces both had scratches/grooves on them from rough clean ups by past owners. That 0.002" low spot needed attention too.
So, I pressed the sleeves out and resurfaced both faces on a surface table which had #320 wet and dry adhered to it with double faced tape. 0.002" was removed from both faces and the sleeves were pressed back in place. The top of the sleeves now protrude 0.002" above the deck, but that's an advantage to counter the differing expansion rates between the iron sleeves and the ali cylinder assy. Any excess left proud at normal running temps will produce greater sealing pressure too.

After much discussion on this board and with other reputable mechanics, I decided to run with the MLS Cometic head gasket and the OEM base gasket and o-rings. Because the MLS gaskets completely cover the cam tunnel o-ring area, I decided to use some high temp Permatex sealant in the groove instead of the o-ring and just fit the gasket over it.

The bike's now done 100 kms since the rebuild, with no signs of any base or head gasket leaks. I have a very true head surface, which should help avoid oil seepage.

I will keep everyone informed of any changes as the Kms amass.

Now, do I re-torque which is supposedly now not required, or do I go through
the usual process after the first 1000 kms. I believe that the MLS head gasket probably doesn't need it, but what about the base gasket? I think I'll do a re-torque, for the benefit of the base gasket.

Unlike Brian, I have been impressed with the quality of my MLS, so far.

[crapwacker]

An engine gasket set is the last place to skimp. The time involved plus the other investments (milling, valve work, ect) more than warrant putting in AT LEAST OEM. I have done plenty (automotive) of engine work. V8s are on thing, as they are considerably overbuilt, but high compression, close tolerance fours work too hard. I'm new to the motorcycle realm, but do know that these little buggars have even less room for error. And with most of the machines on here in the 30 year range, still running, it is apparent that the stock parts have earned their cred

[bwringer]

On my Cometic MLS head gasket, I found that the gasket didn't lie flat -- sitting on a flat table, it was at least 10mm above the surface in places -- the positioning holes and bolt holes were not placed correctly (although I don't see how they could have been placed accurately if the thing wouldn't lie flat). The cam chain tunnel area of the gasket was also uneven and poorly made. In addition, there were no seals at the corner oil passages.

Even when I received the gasket in the shrink-wrapped packaging, it was not lying flat. I'm honestly not sure why they let this out of their shop.

As I said, I got in a hurry and stupidly installed this obviously defective POS anyway. I had to use a Dremel with a sanding drum to touch up several places and get it to fit.

Did I just get a Cometic made on a Friday afternoon or Monday morning, or was yours also like this?

[trippivot]

torque and re torque after 3 heat cycles??

yep , it is always the gasket's fault. never the hands that assembled the engine.

I am going to guess there are some assembly secrets you have not paid to learn if these high quality products are fouling your program up.

[Nessism]

It's been a while, but the 850 is now back on the road. I decided not to do a full strip down, as it still has only 87,000 kms aboard.

All surfaces needed checking. I found very little warppage or distortion, but the cylinder surfaces both had scratches/grooves on them from rough clean ups by past owners. That 0.002" low spot needed attention too.
So, I pressed the sleeves out and resurfaced both faces on a surface table which had #320 wet and dry adhered to it with double faced tape. 0.002" was removed from both faces and the sleeves were pressed back in place. The top of the sleeves now protrude 0.002" above the deck, but that's an advantage to counter the differing expansion rates between the iron sleeves and the ali cylinder assy. Any excess left proud at normal running temps will produce greater sealing pressure too.

After much discussion on this board and with other reputable mechanics, I decided to run with the MLS Cometic head gasket and the OEM base gasket and o-rings. Because the MLS gaskets completely cover the cam tunnel o-ring area, I decided to use some high temp Permatex sealant in the groove instead of the o-ring and just fit the gasket over it.

The bike's now done 100 kms since the rebuild, with no signs of any base or head gasket leaks. I have a very true head surface, which should help avoid oil seepage.

I will keep everyone informed of any changes as the Kms amass.

I believe the failure on the base gasket is the oblong O-rings at the oil feed passages, not from the small piece of gasket around the O-ring which don’t really do anything other than act as a spacer.

Regarding surfacing the head without the liners installed, I believe this is a mistake. Any decent machine shop can skim the cylinder to cut the aluminum and iron liners at the same time. This is how Suzuki built the engine so you are taking a big risk by having the liners sticking out. Don’t take me wrong, I truly hope your engine does not leak but when people do unconventional things a RED flag goes up in my head.

[49er]

On my Cometic MLS head gasket, I found that the gasket didn't lie flat -- sitting on a flat table, it was at least 10mm above the surface in places -- the positioning holes and bolt holes were not placed correctly (although I don't see how they could have been placed accurately if the thing wouldn't lie flat). The cam chain tunnel area of the gasket was also uneven and poorly made. In addition, there were no seals at the corner oil passages.

Even when I received the gasket in the shrink-wrapped packaging, it was not lying flat. I'm honestly not sure why they let this out of their shop.

As I said, I got in a hurry and stupidly installed this obviously defective POS anyway. I had to use a Dremel with a sanding drum to touch up several places and get it to fit.

Did I just get a Cometic made on a Friday afternoon or Monday morning, or was yours also like this?

You may have got a Monday gasket, but I'm picking it got damaged somewhere in transit to you. You should have returned it for a replacement.

The damage was probably caused by a third party and as a consequence, Cometic have born the blunt of the bad publicity. Vesrah have also received the same treatment probably through no fault of them, but purely through some pirate company copying their product using inferior quality materials.

Surface integrity is quite important for reliable sealing, just as gasket composition and trueness is.

I'm keeping an open mind on the MLS gaskets. I've had good local feedback about them.

[49er]

I believe the failure on the base gasket is the oblong O-rings at the oil feed passages, not from the small piece of gasket around the O-ring which don’t really do anything other than act as a spacer.

Regarding surfacing the head without the liners installed, I believe this is a mistake. Any decent machine shop can skim the cylinder to cut the aluminum and iron liners at the same time. This is how Suzuki built the engine so you are taking a big risk by having the liners sticking out. Don’t take me wrong, I truly hope your engine does not leak but when people do unconventional things a RED flag goes up in my head.

Yes, the o-rings were both undersized and out of shape when the base gasket failed. However, it only failed on the left oil way, which did have a 0.002" low spot on the surface, where it leaked.

I doubt there'll be a problem with the sleeves sitting 0.002' proud of the deck. Natural expansion rate differences between the two metals will reduce this.
Consider that many radical tuners/drag racers use metal o-rings to seal the bore when running high CR's. These can sit 0.006" proud of the block surface. Sure, the contact point is narrower, but my height difference is 1/3 less too.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained!!

[bwringer]

You may have got a Monday gasket, but I'm picking it got damaged somewhere in transit to you. You should have returned it for a replacement.

The damage was probably caused by a third party and as a consequence, Cometic have born the blunt of the bad publicity.

No, it was definitely NOT damaged in shipping. It was manufactured incorrectly, in several quite obvious ways as outlined above. It was also lacking corner seals.

Cometic should not have shipped that embarrassing piece of crap, but they did. You are correct that I should have sent it back immediately (with a note saying "You must be joking..."), but I was dumb enough to fix it up with a Dremel and install it -- I had no other available options at that time since the Vesrah kit I had was suspect and the Suzuki head gasket was on extended backorder (they do seem to be available now).

I will be fair -- the Cometic head gasket is sealing compression just fine, but it's leaking oil at the corners. Not a steady stream or a lot of oil, and I've ridden a lot of miles with it seeping, but I'll have to fix it sooner or later.

I'm not knocking the MLS concept, materials or technology, or Cometic's other products. I am knocking Cometic's pathetic quality control.

[49er]

No, it was definitely NOT damaged in shipping. It was manufactured incorrectly, in several quite obvious ways as outlined above. It was also lacking corner seals.

Cometic should not have shipped that embarrassing piece of crap, but they did. You are correct that I should have sent it back immediately (with a note saying "You must be joking..."), but I was dumb enough to fix it up with a Dremel and install it -- I had no other available options at that time since the Vesrah kit I had was suspect and the Suzuki head gasket was on extended backorder (they do seem to be available now).

I will be fair -- the Cometic head gasket is sealing compression just fine, but it's leaking oil at the corners. Not a steady stream or a lot of oil, and I've ridden a lot of miles with it seeping, but I'll have to fix it sooner or later.

I'm not knocking the MLS concept, materials or technology, or Cometic's other products. I am knocking Cometic's pathetic quality control.

You are the best judge of the gasket condition from the manufacturer.

Cometic didn't design their MLS gaskets with oil seals on the corner studs, that's why they are missing. If you look closely at their design, these are the only holes that don't have a over lapping sealing ring manufactured between the outer layers. I guess they have found this allows the individual layers to flex better during heat cycles, reducing their tendency to leak. Lets hope they're right.
How many more heat cycles before a re-torque??