Super Series R/R Market Survey

[posplayr]

I don't know if it's too late or if it will help, but here's a link to the stock HD regulator for $129

https://www.zanottimotor.com/shopping/pLookUp.php and then search part number 74505-02.

Most of the post 2000 HD's are 3 phase; I don't know if they are SERIES regulators. Here is one that is virtualy brand new. It is large and on stands

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Harley-2002-03-FL-Rectifying-Regulator-74505-02-NICE-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem20b0cdd5b1QQitemZ140405233073QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

HD seems to have the only vensors who are building aftermarket 3 phase SERIES r/R's. Not sure is OE is.

[posplayr]

Would be interested in seeing a schematic for this if you have it.

I don't have schematics of aftermarket R/R's. Packaging and heat disappation are key so not likely you can just buy stuff at radio shack unless it is much larger than the Compu-fire device.

[bonanzadave]

[Calvin Blackmore]

my conmfusion has no end

is i gonna get a nice one off re gect or are people gonna keep posting obtuse crap in this thread?

[posplayr]

my conmfusion has no end

is i gonna get a nice one off re gect or are people gonna keep posting obtuse crap in this thread?

I have this one on order; should arrive by Friday. The only options for a 3 Phase, SERIES R/R are the Cycle Electric 600 series or this one from Compu-fire. Some of the complete pakages like Banasadave posted might work if you see trhee wires coming from the stator (his does) but you have to buy the rotor/stator. The one I ordered is actually a replacement for the combined R/R-stator-Rotor kit.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1226489&postcount=22

[7th day]

Wasn't planning on building one. I'm an electronic design technician so was just curious about the circuit operation.

I don't have schematics of aftermarket R/R's. Packaging and heat disappation are key so not likely you can just buy stuff at radio shack unless it is much larger than the Compu-fire device.

[posplayr]

Wasn't planning on building one. I'm an electronic design technician so was just curious about the circuit operation.

Posted earlier ; see linky

The newer designs implement the diode bridge with Power MOSFET's which reduce the forward diode drops down to maybe 0.2V @15amps (0.2x15=3 watts) , so the power savings are significant. Unfortunately the FHA0012A type regulators are still SHUNT type and they short out the stator to reduce the power to the load. This is like dimming the lights in your house by shorting the wall outlet with two screwdrivers . The lights dim but you overload the house wiring unless you blow a fuse. SHUNT is very bad unless you are talking about small currents which we are not.



So a natural extension of full wave rectifiction with MOSFET's is to actually do series regulation all in the magic of timing the turn on turn off of the devices to acheive both rectifcation and regulation at the same time. Power dissappation drops significantly and the stator only has to supply that which is required for the load.



These devices can be made very robust in terms of voltage and current capacity with very low drop out. The are ideal for high output at minimum RPM.



Here is a brief overview of power switching. The final figure is what we have on the GS charging stator/rotor/Rectifier (regulator not shown). The low power timing circuitry is all that is missing.



http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_...html#03222.png

[TheCafeKid]

Well, the permanent magnet type inside the engine still works when the engine is partially underwater, and is pretty well isolated from gravel...

Ah, good point. I often forget that bike was designed as a dual purpose. I have only ever seen them decked out in street/sport touring garb.

[posplayr]

Got the Compu-Fire on Friday. I have it installed and the wiring is such that I will be able to do back to back tests with the FET based SHUNT R/R and this Compu-Fire SERIES R/R.

Here it is mounted. Took a little work but not bad if you have a welder. The unit is 3.75" x 2 1/2" but the bolt spacing is different to the GS bikes. It is very nice quality and seems to charge well but I have not taken any quantitative measurements other than my installed volt meters.




I had to drill new mount holes and weld some new nuts. I can still revert back. I'm pointing to the two new mount holes.



You can see here I had to trim one corner to fit. You can even see it and it all fits nicely under the cover. It fits even nicer than the FA0012A.

You can see the open cavities at both ends. There are taped holes in each for grounds.



Bottom line this is a very nice unit, my bike is running even cooler just going 4-5K RPM and I can put and hold my gloved hand over the stator cover (which was painful before).

[Turtleface]

Got the Compu-Fire on Friday. I have it installed and the wiring is such that I will be able to do back to back tests with the FET based SHUNT R/R and this Compu-Fire SERIES R/R.

Here it is mounted. Took a little work but not bad if you have a welder. The unit is 3.75" x 2 1/2" but the bolt spacing is different to the GS bikes. It is very nice quality and seems to charge well but I have not taken any quantitative measurements other than my installed volt meters.




I had to drill new mount holes and weld some new nuts. I can still revert back. I'm pointing to the two new mount holes.



You can see here I had to trim one corner to fit. You can even see it and it all fits nicely under the cover. It fits even nicer than the FA0012A.

You can see the open cavities at both ends. There are taped holes in each for grounds.



Bottom line this is a very nice unit, my bike is running even cooler just going 4-5K RPM and I can put and hold my gloved hand over the stator cover (which was painful before).

Looks nice! I'll have to keep an eye on my Electrosport, if it ends up going toasty, I'll have to try one of these out. And anything that can help a motor run cooler here in Phoenix is worth considering.

[posplayr]

Looks nice! I'll have to keep an eye on my Electrosport, if it ends up going toasty, I'll have to try one of these out. And anything that can help a motor run cooler here in Phoenix is worth considering.

Just to be clear, the R/R runs very cool as it has a 40 amp capacity, but the big benefit is the cool stator as it is not being SHORTED out by the SHUNT R/R.

Hopefully HP testing in July.

[salty_monk]

Jim,

How does it "switch off" the current without affecting the wave? I know you told me that the "turn it off with a headlight switch" approach is not a good one as it affects the wave form (although with an FET I did get a stable voltage of 12.7v with a dead stator leg).

Presumably on a long run at +5,000 RPM you could switch off a leg to cut current generation to help out? Wouldn't that be a cheap (not as effective) option?

Dan

[posplayr]

Jim,

How does it "switch off" the current without affecting the wave? I know you told me that the "turn it off with a headlight switch" approach is not a good one as it affects the wave form (although with an FET I did get a stable voltage of 12.7v with a dead stator leg).

Presumably on a long run at +5,000 RPM you could switch off a leg to cut current generation to help out? Wouldn't that be a cheap (not as effective) option?

Dan

Dan,
When you turn off one complete leg, the 3 phase is not balanced and so there is alot of ripple. That is certainly not as objectionable as burning a stator. Unless you have a scope you probably will not see that ripple. The R/R will still regulate so that the average output is correct.

The operation of the series and shunt regulators are similar and as viewed from the battery they probably look identical althought the low RPM voltage is higher with this SERIES R/R. The big difference is when the stator is disconneted from the battery. The SHUNT disconnects when it shorts the windings and the SERIES litterally just disconnects. The both operate on a cycle by cycle basis which is fast, balanced and without a scope you dont see the ripple.

So basically if you want to modulate a light switch connected stator leg it would help. I have other things to do when riding.

These are only about $175 delivered ( from the vendor I mentioned) so they are not that much more than an Electrosport and the savings on stators and hassle will more than make up for any extra initial cost.

[Nessism]

Question Jim:

If the stock stator is something like 280 W (.4 HP), how can this new fangled R/R save 10 HP?

[posplayr]

Question Jim:

If the stock stator is something like 280 W (.4 HP), how can this new fangled R/R save 10 HP?

Ed,
280 Watts must be a rating at low RPM, as the output power is actually a squared function of RPM. I'm not sure yet what the limit is as there are likely some magnetic losses that eventually round off the square power law.
290W = to approx 14.5V x 19 amps. Looking at the table the stator can probably supply that type of current to the load at something just over 2500 RPM depending upon R/R and stator combinations. Note even without regulations, there is approximately as much power lost in the stator due to heat as there is power lost in the R/R and the GS electrical system.


As a for instance we know that a typical R/R output is about 14 amps at 14.5 by the time we get to 2500 RPM and there is no regulation (I have observed this) just rectification in the diodes.

That means that
203W = 14Amps x 14.5V is delivered to the GS electrical
Figure 1.1V drop per diode or about
29 W = 14 amps x 2.2 V is consumed in the full wave rectifier.

That is a total of approx 240 W for which there is probably a comparable amount dissipated in the stator so we have close to 500W total power generated at 2500 RPM. If the square law holds, then there is 2500 watts at 5K RPM but still only 203W going to the GS electrical. The R/R doesn't really a lot hotter in regulation because the SCR shorts removing one of the diodes and lowering. So as a simplification that the SHUNT regulator forces the rest of the 2500-240 = 2K watts to dissipate as heat in the stator. Another 40% rise in RPM to 7K RPM and the power has doubled again now 2*2500-240 = 4750 Watts in the stator. That is why the stators get burnt up.

When I has my starter out, I even noticed bluing on the tip of the starter gear.

I summarized the power calculations here.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1221084&postcount=1

In the spreadsheet posted, I approximated the effects of the R/R conversion efficency, the stator and load resistance, supposed 20% busted output from an electrosport stator as well as the ideal squared law characteristic.

I plan to do some measurements using a current clamp next weekend. My scope will calculate the instantaneous power in the stator and I should be able to confirm these calculations. If Bruce can get a dyno arranged, I want to do back to back tests on the dyno to see what the rear wheel Hp benefit is as well.