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When do you expect ev bikes to become practical road bikes.

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    #16
    I don't know when, but I think it will be sooner then later. Locally, E bike use has increased tremendously and at this point E bikes seem to be the modern version of 70s and 80s mopeds. It's not a that big of a jump to a proper e motorcycle. Like most, I enjoy the sensations of of my ICE motorcycle, but the thought of silently trolling around town late at night appeals to me.
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      #17
      I'd love for my wife to have an *affordable* EV car as her commuter that I have to worry about even less maintenance (less than her already very easy-to-live-with Camry 4cyl). A pre-requisite is that it not be as screen-dependent as a current Tesla (various basic controls buried three menus deep), and not have these "over the air" updates and access to the vehicle remotely and can shut off or turn on features and functionality on their whim. I have precisely *ZERO* interest in an EV motorcycle. I can have 300 miles of range or more and go 0-60 in 1 second, it doesn't matter. I ride because I enjoy going up and down the gears and listening to and feeling the response of the engine, and yes I'm the weirdo that enjoys doing some maintenance and even having that special smell in the garage. I'll pay $10/gal+ for gas if need-be.
      Previous GS fleet: '78 1000C, '79 750E, '81 650G, '82 1100G, '81 1100E
      Other rides: '77 XS500C, '78 XS1100E

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        #18
        Originally posted by BreakawayGS View Post
        I grew up a race car fan. Most of the excitement of watching races is the sound of power! You can feel the power. Go to an EV race and see how thrilling it is. Why do we put different exhausts on? Because it sounds good. I hope we never switch to only EV, they have no soul. I think hydrogen powered ICE should be the future, especially if you are worried about pollution.
        I've actually been to electric motorcycle races, and they are just as thrilling without the engine noise.

        You can still hear the sound of machinery; they're just different sounds. You get the the squeaks and squeals of the tortured tires (until electric racing, who knew that motorcycle tires made noise?), the sizzle of the chains, the whine and whirr of electric motors pushed to their limits. Brakes and suspension make some surprising noises sometimes as well. It's also really cool how you can hear more of the crowd, and in fact the announcer told us to cheer on our favorites; at the slower speeds in corners, the riders could actually hear the crowd.

        And spectators can actually hear and talk to each other; it's more of a shared experience that way. Lots more chatter and discussion. And you don't have to wear hearing protection, and force your kids into earmuffs.

        I totally get that there really is something about the visceral, physical wallop of racing engines at full song. It's a loss in some ways, but losing that means you can also gain in other ways. For example, electric motorcycles mean there can be more places to ride. More road courses, trails, and dirt tracks can be saved if they don't have to shut down due to noise. More and more large cities are going to restrict access to the city center to EVs.

        Yes, electric racing is a very different kind of kick. But it's still very exciting.

        As you say, hydrogen engines might become a way to preserve internal combustion racing in all its noisy glory.



        As far as electric motorcycles for consumers, I think Erik Buell's new Fuell Fllow represents the best available set of features, use case (commuting, not touring), price, and other characteristics given the range limitations of current battery technology.


        Again, the Fllow is what we can do now. To get beyond that to true two-wheeled ICE replacements, we're going to need another advancement or two in battery capacity vs. weight. (And of course electrified bicycles are exploding in popularity right now.)

        Our pal Robin Dean recently scored an interview with Erik Buell on his podcast, The Riding Obsession. The segment with Erik Buell starts about 34 minutes in, and is well worth a listen to hear an experienced engineer and manufacturer talk about designing, manufacturing, and marketing an exciting, but reality-based electric motorcycle.
        Listen in as Robin interviews Mr. Erik Buell about his new electric two-wheel project(s).



        As with current electric cars, most riders or households with electric motorcycles will have other ICE motorcycles for long-distance use, or for a different experience, for a long time to come.

        And as for me, I'll keep my GS850G for ever and ever. Maybe eventually I'll have to get a special permit to buy containers of synthetic "Gas-O-Kleen" at the hardware store.
        Last edited by bwringer; 08-01-2023, 02:07 PM.
        1983 GS850G, Cosmos Blue.
        2005 KLR685, Aztec Pink - Turd II.3, the ReReReTurdening
        2015 Yamaha FJ-09, Magma Red Power Corrupts...
        Eat more venison.

        Please provide details. The GSR Hive Mind is nearly omniscient, but not yet clairvoyant.

        Celeriter equita, converteque saepe.

        SUPPORT THIS SITE! DONATE TODAY!

        Co-host of "The Riding Obsession" sport-touring motorcycling podcast at tro.bike!

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          #19
          I have no problem with EV's nor the folks wanting one, probably good idea. But like everything else I think we need to evolve into them. I've been thinking maybe we're being kind'f forced to them before they have got figured out enough to make them what folks will want to buy without being told you've got to buy EV cause we ain't going to sell anything else.... Price and range, yep, we're getting there, just not there yet.
          1983 GS1100E, 1983 CB1100F, 1991 GSX1100G, 1996 Kaw. ZL600 Eliminator, 1999 Bandit 1200S, 2005 Bandit 1200S, 2000 Kaw. ZRX 1100

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            #20
            OOhhh, the sound and smell is exciting. I guess folks thought the same thing back when we went from racing horses to the ICE autos. Possibly kind'f the same thing only backwards... I'd never thought what the sound would be like without the ICE, no doubt something to think about..
            1983 GS1100E, 1983 CB1100F, 1991 GSX1100G, 1996 Kaw. ZL600 Eliminator, 1999 Bandit 1200S, 2005 Bandit 1200S, 2000 Kaw. ZRX 1100

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              #21
              Truth be told I've never been to *any* sort of motorcycle race, to say nothing of an EV motorcycle (or car) race. But one of the most exhilarating spectating experiences I've had was going down to the Indianapolis Speedrome on the southeast side of town to watch a night of racing. Everything from little kids go-karts, to smashed up Honda Civics duking it out (they have to run stock mufflers, actually), to Yamaha-FJ09-powered "Legends" cars that sound amazing, and finally the crazy nitro-methane running Figure 8 cars that are running open exhausts and leave spectators near the fence with bits of tire in their teeth/hair.
              Previous GS fleet: '78 1000C, '79 750E, '81 650G, '82 1100G, '81 1100E
              Other rides: '77 XS500C, '78 XS1100E

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                #22
                Originally posted by gtem View Post
                Truth be told I've never been to *any* sort of motorcycle race, to say nothing of an EV motorcycle (or car) race. But one of the most exhilarating spectating experiences I've had was going down to the Indianapolis Speedrome on the southeast side of town to watch a night of racing. Everything from little kids go-karts, to smashed up Honda Civics duking it out (they have to run stock mufflers, actually), to Yamaha-FJ09-powered "Legends" cars that sound amazing, and finally the crazy nitro-methane running Figure 8 cars that are running open exhausts and leave spectators near the fence with bits of tire in their teeth/hair.
                Yup, the grassroots racing down at the speedrome is crazy good fun. We went to a night of flat track racing down there while back, and it was a blast. Very different, and in most ways far better than the high-dollar racing over at IMS, ORP, etc. You can get up close and personal with everything, that's for sure.

                Back when we had MotoGP in Indy, I regularly hosted a crowd at my house for that three days of racing. There was also the brief return of flat track races at the Indy Mile at the fairgrounds on 38th street for a few years on the same weekend, not to mention the "Motorcycles on Meridian" event, with thousands of bikes and riders hanging out downtown.

                MotoGP was a full three-day event, with several other classes of racing, shows, demonstrations, etc. -- there was pretty much always something happening on the track. And that's where I saw the electric motorcycle races I referred to; this was in 2008 through about 2012, IIRC, so before many of the recent developments in EVs. They also had the Harley XR1200 races, and at least two other classes of MotoGP.



                Back to the topic, sort of: as mentioned above, electric or electric-assist bicycles are already big sellers. There are also many other small electric vehicles on the market, like all kinds of scooters and suchlike. One of the persistent issues afflicting these is that the vehicles, or at least the majority of the components, are made in China under thousands of fly-by-night brands, and the design and quality ranges from downright dangerous to just pitiful.

                I tried to help a friend of a friend recently who paid well over $3,000 for a high-end electric stand-up scooter (terrifyingly fast and powerful, when it worked). After a few months of use, the electronic components began to fail one after the other. I helped replace many of these, but it was a constant battle. Just accessing common components is far more difficult than needed; the thing was never designed to be serviced or disassembled. If you remove a cover, miles of wires connected (and many not connected) with no rhyme or reason explode everywhere. Fasteners are hidden or inaccessible... it's a nightmare to work on.

                After a mighty effort to replace the main controller (an obviously undersized, badly made, improvised gadget if I ever saw one) it worked for about three minutes before failing again. He's pursuing a warranty claim with the importer, but I don't know where that's going to end up.

                So I suppose the overall point is that things will be very different, and rapidly get a lot better in many ways, once the established manufacturers get more and more involved in the electric two-wheeler game. They're only dabbling right now, but more, much more, is coming.

                The same process is further along in the four-wheeled EV game; Tesla showed the way to make EVs people would actually buy. Tesla did so many things brilliantly, but they also made a lot of mistakes, and are still making a lot of mistakes. Uneven quality is the biggest; quality is extremely hard to do, but the legacy brands have a lot more experience with this. They're rapidly catching up and surpassing Tesla in a lot of ways (although they're also having their own quality and other issues, of course.)

                Others (like Zero) are making compelling, high quality electric motorcycles, but they've all ended up with absolutely ridiculous high prices, only affordable for the wealthy and bored.

                Buell's Fllow is the first 2-wheeler I've seen offered for a use case that makes sense at a price that (sort of) makes sense, and made with quality engineering in the US or Europe to a quality standard that makes sense. Obviously we'll need to see how these things work out in the real world to find out whether they've actually pulled it off. But so far... it makes sense.
                1983 GS850G, Cosmos Blue.
                2005 KLR685, Aztec Pink - Turd II.3, the ReReReTurdening
                2015 Yamaha FJ-09, Magma Red Power Corrupts...
                Eat more venison.

                Please provide details. The GSR Hive Mind is nearly omniscient, but not yet clairvoyant.

                Celeriter equita, converteque saepe.

                SUPPORT THIS SITE! DONATE TODAY!

                Co-host of "The Riding Obsession" sport-touring motorcycling podcast at tro.bike!

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                  #23
                  With the claims Toyota is making on their new battery, if it is at all truly feasible and affordable, it could make a big impact. 745 miles on a single charge!

                  I'm posting the link again. I've read up some more on it. Toyota is taking many paths, including burning hydrogen straight. They have developed some impressive engines.

                  A quote from the article:

                  The Japanese automakers plan to install these batteries into their hybrid vehicles a couple of years before the first EV release. When the solid-state batteries are released in 2027 or 2028, Toyota says the batteries will give their EVs an impressive 745 miles of range




                  https://www.topspeed.com/toyotas-sol...-to-932-miles/

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                    #24
                    If Toyota has come up with a reliable and affordable solution that meets their claims, it will definitely be a game changer whether you like EVs or not, that's for certain.

                    As with all things, time will tell.
                    - 1983 GS850L ~ 30,000 miles and going up - Finally ready for a proper road trip!
                    - 1977 GS750B - Sold but not forgotten

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                      #25
                      Do deaf people enjoy racing? I think so....because it's not about how loud, racing is about how fast.
                      Yes they do, and even more so with ICE because when watching a race in person they can "feel" the power! Different strokes for different folks!
                      I love the sound of a bike screaming at 12K rpm, but perhaps I am becoming like you in my old age because your not going to find me putting an aftermarket exhaust on!

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                        #26
                        Just a few points:

                        There are dozens of acres of brand new electric cars sitting (and rotting?) in the PRC. Why were they built? Something to do with accounting, and perhaps a mixture of capitalism and communism.

                        Tesla has built more e cars than it can currently sell.

                        We all talk about range and price (among other factors), but what about weight?

                        I'm not even convinced that e cars are the way to go. What if there were a breakthrough tomorrow in hydrogen cells? Or, what if that breakthrough came after e car charging stations were as ubiquitous as gas stations? Yikes!

                        Remember when every time you filled up (and spent a grand total of 6 or 7 dollars) you got a plate, or a drinking glass, or a slot car toy? That's in addition to all your windows cleaned and your oil checked. And air for your tires was free!
                        1982 GS1100E V&H "SS" exhaust, APE pods, 1150 oil cooler, 140 speedo, 99.3 rear wheel HP, black engine, '83 red

                        2016 XL883L sigpic Two-tone blue and white. Almost 42 hp! Status: destroyed, now owned by the insurance company. The hole in my memory starts an hour before the accident and ends 24 hours after.

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                          #27
                          From what I've I know of Toyota they're not intending to go pure EV at this time. Toyota is moving ahead with hybrids, solid state batteries. Their current Prime model a hybrid is a huge success, Toyota can't keep up to demand the wait list is literally years long with most going to the Japanese home market. When local dealers where l live do get their hands on one it sells well over manufacturers list price. The hybrid approach maybe the most practical approach until the ev charging infrastructure is well established. The Prime has sufficient ev range for urban commutes, the ice engine covers you on long distances. Reports on it's performance are excellent 302hp, combined ev/ice mode zero to 60, 5.5 sec
                          1979 CBX, AW440 Maico, GS1150EF
                          http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...ine=1447792849

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                            #28
                            Yep, that's what evolution is, getting things worked out to the point it's worth the effort. Just probably don't need to be pressured into EV's before the technology has evolved to make them worth the effort... No doubt getting closer all the time.
                            1983 GS1100E, 1983 CB1100F, 1991 GSX1100G, 1996 Kaw. ZL600 Eliminator, 1999 Bandit 1200S, 2005 Bandit 1200S, 2000 Kaw. ZRX 1100

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Suzukian View Post
                              With the claims Toyota is making on their new battery, if it is at all truly feasible and affordable, it could make a big impact. 745 miles on a single charge!

                              I'm posting the link again. I've read up some more on it. Toyota is taking many paths, including burning hydrogen straight. They have developed some impressive engines.

                              A quote from the article:





                              https://www.topspeed.com/toyotas-sol...-to-932-miles/

                              Yup, Toyota has invested heavily in research and patents, and seems confident that they can be the ones to bring about the next big advances in batteries. They are not generally a company that boasts idly, so I'd take the bare trickle of carefully phrased claims pretty seriously.

                              They are literally betting the company that they can leap over the battery curve before widespread EV mandates kick in. And obviously, they have long made the world's most sorted-out hybrids, and that tech, experience, and industrial muscle applies to pure EVs as well.

                              To put this another way, we'd need a sustained blank-check moonshot effort by a major government to equal what Toyota is doing.

                              I think they'll pull it off.

                              Can't wait for these kinds of batteries to trickle into motorcycles; we need to roughly double (or more, if we can get it) the current battery limitations in capacity/cost/weight to make electric motorcycles make sense, especially as an only bike.

                              As noted, some feel that combustion is an integral part of the two-wheeled experience, and will never be interested in electric motorcycles no matter how good they get. But that's a separate issue.

                              Me, I'd love to add an electric bike to the stable right now; my 7 mile urban commute is a perfect use case even for current EV technology. Obviously, I'll also have ICE motorcycles for a good long time to come.
                              1983 GS850G, Cosmos Blue.
                              2005 KLR685, Aztec Pink - Turd II.3, the ReReReTurdening
                              2015 Yamaha FJ-09, Magma Red Power Corrupts...
                              Eat more venison.

                              Please provide details. The GSR Hive Mind is nearly omniscient, but not yet clairvoyant.

                              Celeriter equita, converteque saepe.

                              SUPPORT THIS SITE! DONATE TODAY!

                              Co-host of "The Riding Obsession" sport-touring motorcycling podcast at tro.bike!

                              Comment


                                #30
                                I found a YouTube video that shows how to rebuild a Prius battery, with all parts sourcing listed. Total price, you do the work comes out to around $1700 bucks, as opposed to the $3K the dealership wants. The battery you rebuild has better brake regenerative properties, and slightly more capacity. If you price out what it would cost you to build a Prius, if you could find one in good condition that needed a battery replacement, there's margin for profit, or for having an Hybrid on the cheap. This guy had $4700 into the Prius and sold it for 8K when he was done. I'd post a link, but I don't remember which one I watched, and there are many now. The one I watched had all the parts sourcing with links in the description.

                                My neighbor had one, and got rid of it when the battery unit went on him last year. He purchased it new. A family member gave him an old Camry, in excellent condition for free. He told me that he had forgotten how it felt to drive a "real" car. He liked the Prius, but would never go that route again. He really loves that Camry.

                                The reality, I believe, is that many different vehicles will be living side by side. New fuels coming on the market with virtually no pollution (look at what Porsche is doing), and until the costs come down, there will be many ICE vehicles just being repaired and being driven. Since I can fix all my cars, and taking my age into consideration, electric vehicles will not be anything I need to worry about owning. Far too expensive, with 3 cars, a motorhome, and 3 motorcycles. I'm set on vehicles till I expire. I have a 2014 Avalon with a V6. The car is was fast as a car as I need. I have a 2014 Subaru Forester, that easily will average 30 mph, and if I'm careful, 34 mph, tons of space inside. I have a 2005 Subaru Forester that I pull a small trailer with. The car does not burn oil, runs great, and has 240K miles on it. That car owes me nothing.

                                If somehow I purchased an E.V., I wouldn't live long enough to make back any gas savings, as I don't drive that much these days anyhow. I have no car payments, and that's a good feeling.

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