Crash question

[max]

Hey all

Andy's sticky crash post (which freaked the hell outta me) has raised a topic around my living room that none of my biker family members seems capable of agreeing on. I read the post out loud to my uncle, my dad and my brother, and then we launched into a discussion that took the entire night over what Andy should have done had he had just one more second to react.

The two prevailing theories are that it is a better idea to lay the bike down and surf it into the obstruction, or do your best to launch yourself over the car.

Both seem pretty damn crazy to me, but we are all self-taught riders. My uncle has dropped about a dozen times in the 45+ years he's been riding, and never really hurt himself more than a broken wrist. My dad has been down twice, and me and my brother are both accident free. We all feel like we hope for the best and prepare for the worst, but last night really convinced me that I am unprepared as ever for a serious crash.

Here are some things I know: don't lock up the brakes (duh), try your best to steer out of the crash, keep in mind a softer crash site if available (like medians or bushes), etc. What I don't know is what should I do if I've got no option like Andy? How to minimize damage to my self, and secondarily my GS? Your opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Max

[argonsagas]

That prompts a big IF.

IF
you have an opportunity to launch yourself clear

IF
you are in good enough condition to put your body in the neecessary position(s)

IF
you have developed skill at such body movements through specific workouts or related skills

IF
you can analyze all the data around and in front of you quickly enough that you can make a sound decision

IF
you are wearing protective gear

Then, maybe launching is not a bad idea.


We had an example posted by Earlfor some time ago, when he went through exactly that, and his previous training with parachuting helped him roll and land safely.

I suspect very, very, few of us have the skills, physical fitness and conditioning, plus the mental focus to do that safely, and also have the experience and judgment to handle all that mental processing sub-concsiously, because there is no time to pause and consider options.

That said, if you are looking at colliding with another moving vehicle, laying a bike down and sliding under it is generally NOT a great idea.

Quite literally, laying the bike down is giving up all control, and yielding your future to chance. One of the chances, and a good one, is that you will slide under the other moving vehicle where you may be sandwiched, crushed, or both.

Keep it upright and control it as best you can.

[skreemer]

can't remember who it was but someone saw a choice of hitting a vehicle and going into the bush and chose option numbrt 3 and went between two oncoming vehicles...

I can't say I woulda tried the same thing (I probably woulda opted for the ditch) but damn keep on the bike and keep your mind reeling through the options...

[Billyboy]

That was earl.

I'd try to ride the p1ss outta the front brakes and lessen the impact in Andy's case. IF I had another second.

[Gary Lich]

Hey all

My uncle has dropped about a dozen times in the 45+ years he's been riding, and never really hurt himself more than a broken wrist.

Thanks

Max

Dropped 12 times ??? (Mabe your uncle should think about taking up a different pastime) ...... It's hard to say what is the best option to minimize injury because every situation is different. I have been riding for 35 years (dropped once). I think the key is being aware of what options are available before you have to make that split second decision...

[Billyboy]

[QUOTE=8trackmind;529742]Yet engine performance questions outpace brake questions 100 to 1. :roll:

QUOTE]

HEY! I put in lots of parking lot emergency braking practice! I know the limits of my brakes, crappy though they may be.

[ScottMc1100L]

Yet engine performance questions outpace brake questions 100 to 1. :roll:
-
-
-
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....... If you have more go, you need more woah, bro.*

Good points!

One of my primary reasons when getting back into biking this season for not simply riding the bike that I already owned was the brakes. It has a single front disc with a drum rear. Never thought it was too bad until I rode a bike with twin/single disc set up. Is there room for improvement on my 1150's braking, yes but it's far better than what I had.

As far as laying it down vs an attempted launch? In Andy's (ALB80-850) case (as you noted Max) there was no choice, no time whatsoever. Every scenario is different. If a collision is imminent, whatever option brings you (your body) to a stop using in the longest distance is what I'd be trying for. And Max if you're going to lay it down, you're going to need to lock the rear brake.

[max]

Thanks guys, a whole lot of great information here. Everyone seems to have something different to say. Let me follow up with another question, aimed to Billyboy but anyone else with input please chime in: When emergency braking as hard as possible, what is the best ratio to apply the brakes? I mean, do you all lock up the front and put like 50% brake power on the rear (to keep the bike up) or the other way around, what have you all found that works best? After Andy's story I've been circulating different contingency plans in my head for different emergency scenarios, and I'd like to know the best way to stop hard without losing my standupability.

Thanks again

Max

[tkent02]

Go out and practice....

When emergency braking as hard as possible, what is the best ratio to apply the brakes?

Practice untill you are good at it...
Start out at slower speeds first, then higher and higher.
Get to where it is second nature to have both wheels braking independantly at their individual limits of traction. Then start over on slight curves, uneven or wet pavement, areas with loose gravel, whatever kind of surface you might ever ride on. My point is not to get you to dump your bike, more to get you to know just what it can do in any given situation. However if you do dump it practicing you will only fall down, not hit a car or whatever. When you suddenly have a very compelling reason to stop is not the best time to be learning how to do it. The correct "ratio" is never going to be the same twice.

[Billyboy]

Thanks guys, a whole lot of great information here. Everyone seems to have something different to say. Let me follow up with another question, aimed to Billyboy but anyone else with input please chime in: When emergency braking as hard as possible, what is the best ratio to apply the brakes? I mean, do you all lock up the front and put like 50% brake power on the rear (to keep the bike up) or the other way around, what have you all found that works best? After Andy's story I've been circulating different contingency plans in my head for different emergency scenarios, and I'd like to know the best way to stop hard without losing my standupability.

Thanks again

Max

I'm still a relative newb, so take this for what it's worth:

In emergency braking, you should ideally be upright.
Progressivly squeeze the front brake. Don't just grab a handfull. You want to load the brakes up evenly and progressively until you're stopped.

In slow mo: You're looking ahead, riding smart when some cage pulls out from an alley and stops in front of you. You get off the throttle and start squeezing the front lever. The forks compress under the weight shift. This adds to the available traction of the front tire. You want that. Keep squeezing, feeling for the near-lockup point. Practice is the only way to know where that is, but shrieking rubber is a sign you're there. Start applying a bit of rear brake. Not too much! With the weight shifting forward there's not a whole lot of available traction back there. Too much will lock it up and you'll likely go down. You squeeze, squeeze, squeeze that lever and mod the rear brake until you stop 12 inches short of the cage's drivers door. Put your feet down, flip your visor, and curse out the frikken idiot for being retarded and trying to kill you. Throw stuff if that's your thing.

Ideally, it should take ONE full second to get to full squeeze. It's a process. If a crash is imminent, EVERY MILLISECOND OF HARD BRAKING LESSENS THE SEVERITY OF POSSIBLE INJURIES. You're far better off scrubbing off speed with the rubber down than "laying it down to avoid a crash". That's an excuse.

You'll be surprized how much you can squeeze that front lever without locking up the tire

[Big T]

I'm still a relative newb, so take this for what it's worth:

You'll be surprized how much you can squeeze that front lever without locking up the tire

Definately practice braking until you can make that front tire moan!

My GS won't take much rear brake in full braking mode, so start with little or no rear, then add in as needed. And do it again. And again

[jbs80106]

Take the MSF Beginner/Advance Course!!!!

Probably your uncle and other rider relative should consider it as well. I've not taken the Advanced course yet as I only just took the beginner class this summer. What I recall:

- emergency skills are dimminshing skills: YOU MUST practice your emergency stops and swerving skills regularly to keep them fresh, learn the pros/cons of YOUR bike, and most importantly to build reaction habits. Often you won't really have time to 'think' so much as react (think a deer jumping out in front of you). You should have already covered the front break in anticipation and being very familiar with the lock up points of your front/back breaks will be crucial.

- you're almost always better off keeping the bike upright than laying it down and sliding. You'll have NO ability to steer if your sliding and rubber decelerates a lot more effectively than does steel sliding along the pavement.

- you're doing the right thing by analyzing in your mind what 'could' happen and formulating your options/actions. Maybe pretending these in a parking lot and simulating them would help filter out the good ideas from the bad. Seeing, Evaluating and Executing (SEE) is one of the mantras of the MSF class.

- read books. I have the Proficient Motorcycling book and its very informative and can be read over and over honing your skills.

- sometimes accelleration is the best option to breaking but IMO you need to know the behavior of your bike. If you watch NASCAR when there's a wreck, those immediately caught up in it can only jam on the breaks and hang on, however, those with more time to react often ACCELERATE to dive around the wreck.

Personnally for me, in my car or on my bike, my brain thinks "BRAKES!!!!!" almost everytime even if "SWERVE" or "SPEED UP" would be better options.

Just some thoughts from a new rider.

BE SAFE! Keep the rubber side down!

[Tom MLC]

My personal experience with a left-turner happened about 25 years ago. I was far more reckless then, and had little riding experience. I did attend a MC safety course. Maybe it helped me. Maybe not. It's hard to know what instantaneous decision you will make as each situation may be different.

I know I tried desperately to brake, and avoid the car. Which I did successfully. But I used too much rear brake and the bike skidded out from under me as I tried to move to the left. My bike, a GS750, went down on its left side, and I ended up on my butt. I remember literally pushing the bike out in front of me with my feet as we skidded to a stop. Just before we stopped, the bike bit on something and flipped over to the right side.

I was wearing a full riding suit which got tattered in the seat and left arm. My left hand and wrist took the only road rash. Scraped it up pretty good. The bike was still running when I picked her up. She had bent handle bars, a small dent in the tank, two broken turn sigs, and both case savers bent, scraped and cracked. Could have been a lot worse.

And the left-turner...kept on going.

[ALB80-850]

Greetings fellow GSR's

I have been reading some of the post in my orginal thread and this thread as well.
Time for a quick update. I am doing well, a few small set backs have showed up in the last week or two and hopefully will go away quicker than they showed up. I have been favoring my left side because of the injuries to my right side and this has caused something to intermitingly press on my siatic(sp) nerve, which intern causes my right leg to colapse and me falling down . So for the time being on back an crutches and not doing any PT until the powers that be find out what is causing the pressure.Had x-rays done today and have other appointments on Friday. Hopefully they will find something out, hunting season is coming on fast and I hope to be ready\\/ .
I have also had the oppertunity to find out alittle more about my accident. As I stated in my orignal story, I was about 20 yards away from the car when she turned. In reality, it was closer to 20 - 30 feet. Even less time to react. As for the question Max brought up... I don't know. What I do know is I hope this situation I am in never finds any of you out there. If you are going to ride, be on top of your game. And then some. I can not be too careful. Many of you bring up alot of valid points for the rest of us to ponder. The what ifs, if I had a second more, lay it down, keep it up, break, not to break. The safty pros have there opinion, the riders that have been there have there knowledge( and scars) and the newbies want to learn. If you ride, unfortunitly you will probably have some sort of mishap. l learned alot from mine. I will press on and hopefully ride again. If not, I can always say I enjoyed the time and miles in the saddle that I had. Our little corner of the internet is full of people who care and are willing to help, for example: Hap from Texas offered to load up a bike, and trailer it to New York when I am ready to give riding a try again. Thats the caliber of people who roam around these pages, and I'm glad to be a part of it. Once again, thank you all for your kind words,thoughts and prayers.

Andy

[max]

Andy-

Glad to hear you're on the mend, slowly but at least it's progress. If it's any small consolation keep in mind that your story has given me a lot to think about these past days, and my riding habits have noticably changed. I would never have considered myself a squid, but my beast is loud and fast and I'm not afraid to make sure everyone knows it. After reading a firsthand expereince of your raw deal from an established, responsible rider, I've definately toned it down a few pegs.

This weekend I'm going to ride on over to this abandoned airstrip near my house to practice some hard braking. Just got 2 new tires so I look forward to breaking them in, and getting myself steady for a winter of riding. Thanks guys for the advice and the techniques to try, I'll see what I can do with them.

It seems like everybody I talk to has a motorcycle story. I know a guy who knows a guy who did this or that and got his arm yanked off...that kind of BS. However, after hearing about my uncle and dad falling all over the pavement back in the 70s and sliding away with only road rash, a motorcycle crash around my house has gotten jaded to the point of being something that can ruin your day, like a parking ticket, and nothing more. Far cry from the debilitating catastrophe that it can easily turn out to be. I've always wanted to ride well into my retirement, maybe now I'll actually make it.


-Max