Advice on downhill curves?

[JimmyR]

Well I'm probably less qualified to talk on these matters than anyone else here! But I am a firm believer in using both front and rear brakes, but for different times. I used to only use the front but have found that the rear brake is incredibly useful at times. My riding instructor warned me not to just use the front all the time or I would get into trouble. And for slow speed moves the rear is gentler and more predictable than the front.

For something just as simple as slowing to a stop on a straight road, I wash off most of the speed by gently using the front, then as I slow I use the rear and can really feel it helping to slow the bike. Then as I stop it's practically all rear. Contrary to popular opinion I have found the rear brake on my GS1100G to be very useful and have plenty of bite.

Enjoying the exchange of opinions here guys! Learning a lot about riding faster than I ever intend to. I trust my bike, I just don't trust the roads and those who have been using them before me. You can have the best cornering technique in the world, but if a truck just leaked diesel all over the road underneath you it will make life intensely interesting for a second.

[tkent02]

I agree, but, it doesn't take much to get it wrong with the front wheel, as you said yourself the front provides 70% of your braking ability, why not advise on the side of caution, front brake gently until you feel the front dip, a little back brake together with the front, slow and smooth, give yourself plenty of time to get round any corner, keep your revs up, etc. My main advice would be slow down around roads that you don't know and practice.

Whoever came up with the 70% number doesn't know how it works. It might be 70% some of the time. Sometimes it's 50%, there's not much weight shifting forward on ice. THere's also not much weight shifting when you are cornering and heeled over far enough that you can't use much brakes at all. Sometimes it's 99% or 100%, as in the modern bike with huge brakes stopping straight ahead.

Back to the downhill mountain road scenario. I'd take a low side from the front wheel locking over a high side throwing me off a cliff any day. If I'm so too fast in a long curve that there's almost no braking available, and I need to brake, it's the front I trust to do most of the braking, my fingers are smarter and smoother than my clunky old boots. I normally use them both in corners, more front, some rear.
But if I'm that fast in a long curve, I screwed up long ago.
All bikes are different, a sport bike won't be needing the rear brake when the rear wheel is almost in the air, some bikes have linked brakes, some have terrible brakes, like a stock GS with original pads. There is no one technique that works the best in all conditions for every rider of every skill level.

But every rider will do well to go in slower than he normally would when playing in the curves on a down hill road.

[tkent02]

Bottom line is, IMO, either stay off the rear, or mash it and leave it mashed and know that the bike is gonna squirm and slide but should slide in a fairly straight line.

Now this is scary. How is mashing the rear, leaving it mashed and having the rear wheel slide in a straight line going to work out for you in a long corner that you are already too fast into anyway?

Staying off the rear would be better but braking correctly with both would give a lot better results.

[Woodsy]

i've always been taught to brake before the corner, turn in and accelerate out. If you have to brake midcorner then you went in too hot, you never stop learning how to ride a motorbike and i have also had to jump on the brakes mid corner before when a rider coming the other way crossed the white line.

I use the front and rear brakes in a situation like that but i dont use them in a way that would make me stop, i use them in a way that gives me more options on which way to go, i feel when i hit the brakes like that the bike automatically wants to stand up straight ( well it did on my little 250 ) which gives me the options to go either direction. Its all good to talk about it but its not till you have to use it in that Split second, and lets face it it really is a split second that you really get to use it and everyone would react differently.

Does that make sense? lol

[airbornespud]

pmong, i wouldn't worry too much about which brake to use in a corner or trying to incorporate advanced riding techniques into your daily pleasure rides. just practice the basics and you'll be fine. i think some people have gotten a little carried away and need to keep the original post in mind. proper basic cornering will get you through about 99.9% of your daily road riding. good body position and entry speed is all you need to worry about until you get comfortable enough to feel like you can push it in the corners. then come back and start a new thread about advanced cornering technique.

[Baatfam]

Don't listen to anyone that doesn't use BOTH the front and rear brakes. Simple.

Eric

Did my first track day last year...
The very first thing our instructors told us, as beginners, is to never, never use the rear brake...to forget it was even there...
I listened...

That said...I do use the rear under normal conditions on the street. And when riding two up, I'll trail brake into the corners all day long...

[FiremanBob]

There is a lot of good advice outside the controversy over which brake to use.

An old racer's saying is still true: It's better to go into the turn slow and come out fast, than to go in fast and come out dead.

Griffin hit on a really key point: be in a lower gear and at higher RPM. The engine braking effect is similar to using the rear brake but is much more flexible and easy to modulate. The bike should slow rapidly when you roll off the throttle, just as if you used the brake.

If you try to coast through the turn in a high gear at low revs, the front brake will do all the work, fighting gravity, speed and the engine. At high revs, you turn the engine into an ally.

This is in addition to making sure you turn your head, look as far through the corner as you can, keep your arms/shoulders relaxed, keep your weight to the inside, and don't be afraid to lean the bike. The bike is leaning much less than you feel it is.

[Tim Tom]

Pmong,

Since you are re-learning riding, I'd recommend that you take the time to actively brush up your skills. Pick up Lee Park's book "Total Control" and give it a very thorough read. He explains in good detail, proper techniques for faster, and safer street riding. The book is easy and fun to read, and will really help your riding skills improve. It definitely helped me. It's also pretty cheap on amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Control-Performance-Street-Techniques/dp/0760314039

[dpep]

Almost everyone underestimates the effect that a slope has on braking distances. Compared to braking on flat ground, you can brake what feels like a lot and not really be much slower than you were before. Braking before the curve needs to be done sooner, and harder than you might realize. Braking while in the curve does much less than you are used to as well. It is very easy to overcook a downhill curve. Another factor is that you will be a little bit off in your steering, since the angles and dangles all look a little different than you are used to. And, you can't use as much power in the curve as you are used to, the bike is accelerating so much faster down the hill anyway. Some steep long curves you can't use power at all without going too fast for the last part of the curve.

The moral of the story?
Very simple really.
Haul ass up hill, go slow downhill.

The key to safety when going down steeply inclined curves is to keep your revs up. Way up. Most GSes redline around 9,000-10,000 rpm. Keep your revs in the 6-9K range. Due to heavy flywheels, the engine braking can be more effective going downhill than disc brakes.

Relying too much on your brakes will cause them to overheat and lose effectiveness. They'll get mushy and barely slow you down at all. Keep your revs up, look through the curve, and never, ever, use your front brake while heeled over halfway through the curve, especially going downhill. Your bike will stand up straight and over the edge you'll go.

There has been a lot of interesting discussion on cornering in this thread but I think these two posts best address the OP's original request which was for advice on handling downhill curves.

I made the very same request on this forum myself no more than a couple of years ago. I have been riding for a half century or so without any significant lapses, but except for a few days out of each year all of my riding since the early 70's has been in Florida. The state actually does have some back roads with a curve or two (mostly along or around its surface water bodies). But elevation changes greater than an Interstate ramp are almost non existent. When I go up to a ride in NC or WV it takes me a while to adjust my 'perspective' and feel confident. Most of it is like roller skating--it comes back pretty easily. But not so downhill curves--I ain't judged one of those mothers right yet.

I agree with tkent that there is a natural tendency to underestimate the effect of gravity and I think the only way to overcome it is with experience (a.k.a. practice). Bike + rider may be well in excess of 700 lbs. It doesn't take much slope for matters to quickly get outside of your best intentions.

The best I have come up with so far is low gear/high revs and careful (gradual) use of the rear break. And of course slow way down before starting the curve. And it may be obvious but important enough to emphasize, get into that low gear and let out on the clutch BEFORE the turn, not during.
...

[MisterCinders]

Following this debate with interest.

I am still a noob rider, and Chicago is flat as a pancake. For fun, I will hop on the bike and ride 40 minutes out just to get some elevation changes to ride through.

A recent trip on that route confirmed my level of newbie/wussy riding. There is a short mile or two of windy curvy road that is a popular Sunday drive spot for bikes, etc. they call the "Ravines." The speed limit is like 20 mph because the curves are really tight and blind. Even at slow speeds, however, it's a scenic and fun little stretch. It really sucks to get to the start and have a mini-van or SUV infront of you, as they really have to slow it down, and you end up putt-putting at 10mph through the thing.

A week or so ago, I am heading through and some dude on a Yamaha sport bike (R6 or R1?) is behind me. Happily there are no cars or vans to bog things down. Except me, I am the old lady, down shifting into each blind curve and still going pretty slow (25-30 maybe). So Yamaha guy passes me after the roads straighten out. At the next light a mile or so further down, I pull up to him and literally apologize, noting that I should have let him pass me just before the Ravines, since my skittish riding pretty much screwed him over.

[tkent02]

He could have passed you at his convenience. It's not your bad unless you are in a huge group going slower than Winnebagos through the turns. A single bike can be passed safely by another just about anywhere.

[7981GS]

This is only going down a few thousand feet in elevation on a borrowed bike.
Not as aggressively as usually taken but you kind of get the idea.
Give it a little time to load in HD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-JX1CyJie8

Eric

[MisterCinders]

He could have passed you at his convenience. It's not your bad unless you are in a huge group going slower than Winnebagos through the turns. A single bike can be passed safely by another just about anywhere.

As tight and blind as the corners in that stretch are, there is almost no room to pass even a lone bike without rolling the dice on something coming around the bend. Even if he could do it within the lane, cars often drift the double-yellow coming the other way, so you cannot even be sure that you'll have a full lane to ride in.

Edit: Plus, the guy wasn't a dick about it, wasn't riding my ass, didn't even say anything later, etc. I just knew that he could have been tearing up that stretch of road but for me.

[CivilRock]

My two cents.

25 yrs street riding
20 yrs off road riding/racing
10 yrs road racing
7 yrs Supermoto Racing
7 yrs MX
3 yrs flat track racing
RR instructor, SM instructor, many schools, American Supercamp Graduate.

Hard front braking leaned over can straighten the bike up. Totally depends on the type of bike, tire profile, bike geometry, lean angle, speed, etc. Imagine a wide, "not pointy" front tire with the bike leaned way over right at the edge of the tire, almost on the rim. It can pull the bars and effectively "stand up". Doesn't really apply to leisurely GS riding advice, and probably won't happen on a standard wheeled GS.

Here's my advice to the OP:

1. Use both brakes. This isn't a track day. This isn't super sticky rubber on a 180mph straight. This is crappy rubber on a crappy road with crappy suspension going 35mph. Somebody fresh out of flat track school might tell you the only way to turn is with the rear brake; again, this isn't a clay oval, use both brakes.

3. Loosen up your body. Loosen up your grip on the bars- that's the only way you'll be able to feel what the bike is doing. Try pushing the bike down in the corner flat track style, or the same as the police bike video. Notice that his torso stays pretty upright. Then try hanging off the bike toward the inside of the turn road race style. Move your but around on the seat. Try stuff, get a feel for it. Most people ride with their spine exactly lined up with the center of the bike. Dance with it. You're not in a car.

4. Trust your tires and look where you want to go. You'd be amazed how well even crappy tires will do.

5. Practice. There's no way you'll know what to do in an emergency situation if you don't practice getting into that situation. Use the rear until it skids. See if you can lock up the front and release it. (at your own risk). If I were you, I'd go back to that corner and ride it 20 times. There's easily 50 different combinations of technique to try. Do it once with your foot out. Try it with your crotch right up on the tank. See if you can do it downshifting and modulating the clutch only (no brakes).

I know this isn't about "advanced riding", but I learned more about braking and turning a motorcycle in 2 days with an xr100 on a clay oval than I did 20yrs of riding and racing.

Ideally, you want to do all your braking before you get to the corner and be on the gas by the time you hit the apex.

Have fun with it!

[TheCafeKid]

25 yrs street riding
20 yrs off road riding/racing
10 yrs road racing
7 yrs Supermoto Racing
7 yrs MX
3 yrs flat track racing
RR instructor, SM instructor, many schools, American Supercamp Graduate.

Hard front braking leaned over can straighten the bike up. Totally depends on the type of bike, tire profile, bike geometry, lean angle, speed, etc. Imagine a wide, "not pointy" front tire with the bike leaned way over right at the edge of the tire, almost on the rim. It can pull the bars and effectively "stand up". Doesn't really apply to leisurely GS riding advice, and probably won't happen on a standard wheeled GS.

Here's my advice to the OP:

1. Use both brakes. This isn't a track day. This isn't super sticky rubber on a 180mph straight. This is crappy rubber on a crappy road with crappy suspension going 35mph. Somebody fresh out of flat track school might tell you the only way to turn is with the rear brake; again, this isn't a clay oval, use both brakes.

3. Loosen up your body. Loosen up your grip on the bars- that's the only way you'll be able to feel what the bike is doing. Try pushing the bike down in the corner flat track style, or the same as the police bike video. Notice that his torso stays pretty upright. Then try hanging off the bike toward the inside of the turn road race style. Move your but around on the seat. Try stuff, get a feel for it. Most people ride with their spine exactly lined up with the center of the bike. Dance with it. You're not in a car.

4. Trust your tires and look where you want to go. You'd be amazed how well even crappy tires will do.

5. Practice. There's no way you'll know what to do in an emergency situation if you don't practice getting into that situation. Use the rear until it skids. See if you can lock up the front and release it. (at your own risk). If I were you, I'd go back to that corner and ride it 20 times. There's easily 50 different combinations of technique to try. Do it once with your foot out. Try it with your crotch right up on the tank. See if you can do it downshifting and modulating the clutch only (no brakes).

I know this isn't about "advanced riding", but I learned more about braking and turning a motorcycle in 2 days with an xr100 on a clay oval than I did 20yrs of riding and racing.

Ideally, you want to do all your braking before you get to the corner and be on the gas by the time you hit the apex.

Have fun with it!

More great advice. As I said, I'm not telling anyone NOT to use their rear brake. I simply stated I don't in most situations.

The only thing that I don't necessarily agree with in the above, and again, it's a matter of opinion I suppose, are "pushing the bike away from you" in anything but parking lot speed maneuvers, and the GS tires thing.

The pushing the bike away from you is and always will be a "no-no" thing to me, as at any real speed the bike is now fighting your weight to corner. Leaning inside the chassis aids the bike in cornering, and also allows for cornering quickly without as severe a lean angle as keeping your body in-line or outboard of the corner. Pushing it away creates a higher lean angle, for longer duration and also invites the possibility of contacting hard parts with the pavement. Again, my viewpoint.

As to the tires, today GS tires are not the tires of 30 or even 15 years ago. Yes they're still bias ply, but the compounds used are much better and have way more grip. Anyone who may disagree with that, should follow guys like Brian Wringer around for a bit and you'll see just how much they can take. No, they're not über-sticky radial slicks, but they're a damn sight better than the bad old days.

Also, all of this is good advice, and one piece that hasn't been addressed that I've seen is this (and I'm a firm believer in this) : No matter howhard you choose to ride, or eventually wish to, one of anyone's first priorities when they get their GS rideable should be replacing the stock suspension components with new springs, shocks and oil. And if you wish to ride hard, please please take this into consideration. The stuff out there now is ten times better than the stuff they came with and untold amounts better than the sacked out crap that's on em now. Suspension and tires are what keep our butts attached to the road.
And they work hand in hand. You'd be amazed at the confidence that decent suspension and good tires can instil in you AND the bike.
Personally I would sooner spend thousands of dollars on upgrading suspension before spending a dollar on adding any power to these bikes.Again just my viewpoint.