Advice on downhill curves?

[pmong]

I will add, and not in a "know it all" sort of way, as I am by far no expert or I'd be out on a track instead of running a restaurant; the biggest mistake I see people make in my opinion is NOT TURNING THEIR HEAD. Many preach and try to practice "look where you want to go" but only use their eyes. Fact is, your field of "process-able" vision is actually very small. Experts say it is approximately the size of a US quarter held out at arms length. Yes, you need to use your periferal(sp) vision, but to truly "see" where you wan to go, you need to MOVE YOUR HEAD.

Thanks again for the valuable information. Our MSF instructor also make a major point about turning one's head. I can't say I always do that, so another item to practice, practice.

[pmong]

An advanced cornering technique, used in racing, is to drag your Rear Brake, more than your Front Brake, entering the turn. The bike will fall over into the turn.
Using your Front Brake a lot will make the bike "Stand Up", steering you Out, not In.
Its the Bike Dynamics and Geometry.
Many Racing Bikes will duplicate the Rear Brake with a lever on the handle bars, since hard leans means your on your toes on the Foot Pegs (can't reach Rear Brake Foot Lever).
This is an advanced technique and should be perfected on a track.
Practice this Technique gently on the street.

All I can add is to advise staying in a lower gear for the compression braking benefit. Trail braking can be useful, but it is best left for riders with some experience as too much force can overcome the front tire traction which will most likely result in a low side.

Yes, an interesting technique that is well beyond my limited skills at this time. Still working on the slowing before entering from the outside, countersteer and lean, slowly roll on the throttle, hitting the delayed apex, accelerating out. I am getting better, although still need more practice.

At some point, I want to take a more advance riding class to pick up better techniques.

Thanks.

[pmong]

Almost everyone underestimates the effect that a slope has on braking distances. Compared to braking on flat ground, you can brake what feels like a lot and not really be much slower than you were before. Braking before the curve needs to be done sooner, and harder than you might realize. Braking while in the curve does much less than you are used to as well. It is very easy to overcook a downhill curve. Another factor is that you will be a little bit off in your steering, since the angles and dangles all look a little different than you are used to. And, you can't use as much power in the curve as you are used to, the bike is accelerating so much faster down the hill anyway. Some steep long curves you can't use power at all without going too fast for the last part of the curve.

The moral of the story?
Very simple really.
Haul ass up hill, go slow downhill.

Thanks. You summarized my main issue and concern, which is the problem I encountered when I entered a downhill curve at a speed beyond my skill level. Clearly, the best thing was slowing sufficiently. My mistake in wrongly estimating the curve and the declination. The bike and I made it through but a very unsettling experience with the limiting factor being my modicum of skill. Need better techniques in the future.

[Griffin]

I learned how to ride aggressively and safely in the Apennine Mountains of central Italy while stationed there. I watched crazy Italianos on their Ducatis, Guzzis, and exotic Kawasakis go up and down those mountains all day, and talked to a lot of them to try to learn how they went so fast.

The key to safety when going down steeply inclined curves is to keep your revs up. Way up. Most GSes redline around 9,000-10,000 rpm. Keep your revs in the 6-9K range. Due to heavy flywheels, the engine braking can be more effective going downhill than disc brakes.

Relying too much on your brakes will cause them to overheat and lose effectiveness. They'll get mushy and barely slow you down at all. Keep your revs up, look through the curve, and never, ever, use your front brake while heeled over halfway through the curve, especially going downhill. Your bike will stand up straight and over the edge you'll go.

I saw several mangled Ducatis at the bottoms of canyons while stationed there as well. Very sobering.

[tkent02]

Keep your revs up, look through the curve, and never, ever, use your front brake while heeled over halfway through the curve, especially going downhill. Your bike will stand up straight and over the edge you'll go.

I'm gonna call BS on this one.
I use the front brakes all the time, uphill, downhill, heeled way over, whatever. Never had a bike stand up straight. Ever.

EDit... OK I went out and played with this, there is a very slight tendency for the bike to lean up out of the curve when using the front brake that isn't there when using the rear. I've been steering through this for so long it's not even noticeable. It's very easy to counter steer a little more and keep the angle the same, or go into the curve more if you need it. It certainly isn't like the bike will pop straight up and spit you off the road unless maybe you just grab a huge bunch of front brake and use no steering inputs at all.

[TheCafeKid]

And I'm going to not call BS, but advise against trail braking with the rear brake.
Guys you see on the track are seasoned pros. Watch those bikes squirm and slide before they tip in (and sometimes even while they're tipping in!) to the corner. They know EXACTLY how much brake to use, and EXACTLY when to use it and let off of it.

Look, I know that MSF instructors, books, common sense etc tell you to brake with both, and evenly. But the simple fact of the matter is that most of us "non-aliens" (people like Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo etc are known as "Aliens" because they can seemingly defy the laws of physics on a regular basis on the track) can't honestly concentrate on modulating both front and rear brakes, setting your line, your speed, seeing and avoiding possible hazards, tip in, maintenance throttle etc. In a panic situation, what ends up happening to a LOT of guys who use the rear brake for trail braking is they end up locking it up, and then when the bike starts to slide in the rear they freak and let go of the brake and the tire hooks up and they high side.

Personally, I don't touch my rear brake except to hold the bike at a stop, or to help me slow in a straight line if I've got the extra weight of a passenger. Never. In the twisties, I keep my revs up, and I use the compression braking and front brakes (and with the ZRX that's all you really need anyway, though I know with a GS sometimes the brakes are near worthless...which is how I learned to ride fast without brakes...hahaha) the ball of my right foot never leaves the peg to reach for that brake pedal. It's death IMO. I know not everyone will agree, and that's fine, everyone has their way and I'm not saying there's is wrong. I'm just saying that I've seen, witnessed and felt what happens when you stomp that rear and let go in a panic. Fortunately I didn't high side, but it got real scary real quick.

Bottom line is, IMO, either stay off the rear, or mash it and leave it mashed and know that the bike is gonna squirm and slide but should slide in a fairly straight line.

[TheCafeKid]

I'm gonna call BS on this one.
I use the front brakes all the time, uphill, downhill, heeled way over, whatever. Never had a bike stand up straight. Ever.

I will agree. But for a newer rider, who may not understand that you must be gentle with brakes when heeled over, it's good advice to set the turn up and brake BEFORE you lean it.
And lots of racers actually use braking when cranked over hard. I believe it was Freddie Spencer who perfected the art of being both on the from brake and on the throttle at the same time to effectively shorten the forks and quicken steering. But it's not something I'd practice anywhere except on a track.

I've always thought of the tires like a scale. You have say, 100 points on each wheel. When accelerating, and cornering, the majority of those "traction points" are used up to do so. Say 75 out of the 100. Leaving you only 25 points available for braking before you run out of points and the front wheel tucks under and you eat asphalt. When Braking with the bike upright, the scale swigs to the other side. The tire is using the majority of the points to reel the bike in weight transfer to the front will increase traction, but if you suddenly have to lean the bike while the traction points are being sucked up by slowing the bike down, you don't have much left for it to corner on. Kind of silly perhaps, but that's how I explain it when someone asks something like "How will I know when I can brake inside a corner" or something like that...

[7981GS]

Personally, I don't touch my rear brake except to hold the bike at a stop, or to help me slow in a straight line if I've got the extra weight of a passenger. Never. In the twisties, I keep my revs up, and I use the compression braking and front brakes (and with the ZRX that's all you really need anyway, though I know with a GS sometimes the brakes are near worthless...which is how I learned to ride fast without brakes...hahaha) the ball of my right foot never leaves the peg to reach for that brake pedal. It's death IMO.

That is simply dangerous!
How many times have you crashed doing that?

Eric

[TheCafeKid]

That is simply dangerous!
How many times have you crashed doing that?

Eric

Actually the only time I've crashed was BECAUSE I was on the rear brake.
Explain to me why you *think* it's dangerous. Because everyone has told you that it is? Because YOU don't feel comfortable braking only with the front brakes? Because what?

Just as many people say that using the rear brake is safer than not, I can show you as many people who say it isn't, and show you plenty of videos that plainly display just how dangerous using the rear brake can be if you don't use it correctly. And I'm sure youve seen dozens of videos of cruiser/chopper riders who ONLY use the rear brake and go sliding into a car or off the side of the road.

Your rear brake only provides 20%-30% of your stopping power at best. Couple that with the fact that most rear brakes, especially modern ones on featherweight super sport bikes can easily overpower the rear wheel before they actually help you slow down and it's fairly useless.

Today's modern brakes on the front are so powerful they're really all you need unless you're in a full panic stop, and as I said, in that case, you mash the rear and leave it mashed.

I'm not saying anyone who uses the rear brake is incorrect in doing so. I'm saying *I* don't use it and listed my reasons and opinions as to why. So I invite you to give your reasons and opinions as to why you think it's so dangerous and we can leave it at that. It won't turn into an argument, because you're not going to change my mind and I have no desire to try to change yours. You ride how you ride, and I'll ride how I ride, and everyones happy.

[7981GS]

So, what advice you you have on downhill curves, which already transfer weight to the front wheel? Things I should practice and consider?

Don't listen to anyone that doesn't use BOTH the front and rear brakes. Simple.

Take a MSF course or refresher/advanced course if you have to.


Eric

[EvilEnfield]

...because if the front locks up and starts to slide away from you then it's almost impossible to get it back, you're going to crash, if the back does the same thing then it's a lot easier to gain control of. This is a response to a bloke that wants to ride safely, he's not in training for the TT.

[TheCafeKid]

Don't listen to anyone that doesn't use BOTH the front and rear brakes. Simple.

Take a MSF course or refresher/advanced course if you have to.


Eric

Just like every other comment you've interjected into someone else's post, you spout off at the mouth and then have nothing to back it up.

To the OP, do what makes you most comfortable and confident. If you do things that make you uncomfortable, you won't be relaxed when riding, and THAT is seriously dangerous.

As to your question about keeping your upper body loose, I mean that you shouldn't ride with weight on your arms, your arms locked and tight and your upper body all stiff. Doing so can make your steering and small command motions stuff and "herky-jerky". Smooth is safe, smooth is fast.
Usually, slow into the corner is faster out of the corner.

[TheCafeKid]

...because if the front locks up and starts to slide away from you then it's almost impossible to get it back, you're going to crash, if the back does the same thing then it's a lot easier to gain control of.

Well, first of all, if you actually practice "panic" stops, you wont lock up the front wheel. Braking should be done by squeezing the lever and modulating it. Not grabbing a handful and smashing it. THAT'S how you lock up a wheel.
Like a trigger of a gun, you don't pull, you squeeze.

Second of all, if you lock up the rear wheel and it starts to slide out and you release the brake, there's a decent chance that when it hooks up and regains traction it could toss you off the high side. I dunno bout you, but I'd rather slide into a lowside if I'm going to crash than get ejected...maybe that's just me.

[EvilEnfield]

Well, first of all, if you actually practice "panic" stops, you wont lock up the front wheel. Braking should be done by squeezing the lever and modulating it. Not grabbing a handful and smashing it. THAT'S how you lock up a wheel.
Like a trigger of a gun, you don't pull, you squeeze.

Second of all, if you lock up the rear wheel and it starts to slide out and you release the brake, there's a decent chance that when it hooks up and regains traction it could toss you off the high side. I dunno bout you, but I'd rather slide into a lowside if I'm going to crash than get ejected...maybe that's just me.

I agree, but, it doesn't take much to get it wrong with the front wheel, as you said yourself the front provides 70% of your braking ability, why not advise on the side of caution, front brake gently until you feel the front dip, a little back brake together with the front, slow and smooth, give yourself plenty of time to get round any corner, keep your revs up, etc. My main advice would be slow down around roads that you don't know and practice.

[TheCafeKid]

I agree, but, it doesn't take much to get it wrong with the front wheel, as you said yourself the front provides 70% of your braking ability, why not advise on the side of caution, front brake gently until you feel the front dip, a little back brake together with the front, slow and smooth, give yourself plenty of time to get round any corner, keep your revs up, etc. My main advice would be slow down around roads that you don't know and practice.

Like I said, I'm not telling anyone they're wrong for using the rear brake. Mr Eric/Danielle/whatever proclaimed that not using it is seriously dangerous, and suggested that I have crashed many times because of it. I've never crashed from not using the rear brake, and most people's reasoning behind why not using the rear brake is "seriously dangerous" is completely flawed, regurgitated instruction from MSF instructors or "learn how to ride" books or videos. While I think it's important that new riders should learn how to use the rear brake properly, as well as the front, and when to use it etc, I personally don't find it either necessary or particularly useful in my riding except in full panic stop situations where it would be locked and stay locked if I felt I needed to use it.
As I said earlier, *most* riders cannot concentrate on the large number of tasks they must perform in an emergency stop/emergency slow and still correctly modulate BOTH front and rear brake. I include myself in that generalization as well. Therefore, I choose not to use the rear brake to lessen the chance of me making a severe mistake with it when pushing hard in the twisties.

As far as the rest of your post, I could not agree more. Any time you're on unfamiliar roads, learning or practicing something new to your skillset, or trying to sharpen ones you already use, practice is everything, and slowing down a bit is simply more safe. While I will readily admit that I ride pretty hard compared to some people, and I take liberties with suggested speed limits when I'm out away from civilization, I will say that I try to be a safe, courteous, and otherwise law abiding rider. I dont pass on the double yellow no matter how much I may want to, or unless the guy in front of me waves me around. I don't dart in and out of traffic, cutting people off and being needlessly aggressive, I don't run stop signs, (on purpose anyway...sometimes they are hidden behind trees around here and you don't see em till you're right on top of the intersection..) and I don't ride with people who act like squirmy squiddly douche bags.

That is all for me