Msf

[GSXR7ED]

Exactly My Point

Anything you can learn in a MSF class is worthwhile

That's all I'm tryna say. Learn something new (if that's possible) Take away a positive from the course. See what the new generation of Riders are saying about today's riding and what they learned from the MSF course.



Ed

[jabcb]

Looks like there is some state-to-state variations.

In Pennsylvania the basic course is free.
The basic course is required for 16 & 17 year olds.
Pennsylvania also has an advanced course that is free.

[winfield]

Oh My!

Not the dreaded, "I've been riding for many years".

I'm sure the instructors have heard it all and probably have to bite their tongue with alot of people.

We all have bad habits that no one can lecture us about...that's a given. My challenge would be to see if they can teach you something you don't already know. Maybe they will...maybe they won't. I'm sure you'll be positive otherwise you wouldn't be taking this course to remind you what you already know. (Plus it's a benefit to take it every so often to get perspective). Again, you don't need it but it keeps the mind sharp.



Ed

I think we are saying the same thing here. I was trying to express that I am taking the course because I want to learn and I do not plan on arguing with the instructor at all. Simply saying that if I take the course and still disagree with something then I will make an informed decision about the best course of action for me. This is in contrast to Redman who said he and the instructor had a discussion over something the instructor taught. I am not saying Redman is wrong to do so, I just won't be doing that. I'll listen and learn.

I have ridden motorcycles for many years, since I was 7 or 8 yrs. old, but there was a period of ten+ years when I did very little riding. I've been back at it for a couple of years but am aware that I have a lot to learn.

[winfield]

I had my first class today. There were 9 of us. Only myself and one other person had ever ridden a motorcycle before and him for only 6 months. 5 men, 4 women. TWo dropped out of the class before the day was half over. One woman got off the bike when we were told to dismount and forgot to put the kick-stand down. The bike fell over with her under it. Only her pride was hurt. She was having a lot of trouble with the riding part. It seemed like she couldn't coordinate the clutch and throttle so that she would slow and begin to wobble and put her foot down. She was one who quit the class.

The second person was another woman who was completely unbalanced and awkward on the bike from the gitgo. She could not master power walking the bike, i.e. letting the clutch partially out so the wheel begins to rotate and the bike moves forward while you keep your feet on the ground and walk as the bike moves forward (you are seated on the bike at the time). Any way, she constantly had to stop and put her feet down while going through the various skills. Her bike would rev and nothing would happen because she would have the clutch in, then she would dump the clutch. Finally, as the bike revved she got scared and kinda let the clutch out so it lurched forward and she came off the seat on her feet and the front wheel came off the ground and drug her forward and then she let it go and the bike hit the pavement. She quit.

They weren't the only ones having trouble, though. A truck driver couldn't seem to remember to pull his clutch in before he shifted while moving. He was slow, wobbly, confused, and sometimes stopped in the middle of the course. How does he drive an 18-wheeler? So many of us were having trouble learning the techniques that we didn't finish all the skills that were scheduled for today. We have to go an hour earlier tomorrow to catch up.

Here's something I learned today. They called it something like riding using the friction zone (of the clutch). The clutch is let out slowly until the clutch starts to engage and once the bike moves forward keep the clutch in the friction zone without releasing it all the way out. In addition, you apply the rear brake to create a drag affect which provides stability in circumstances where you must go slow and maintain control, such as a parking lot. I had never done that before. The instructor said this will not have an ill affect on the clutch since it is a wet clutch, unlike the clutch in a car that you definitely don't want to slip because you'll burn it up.

The bikes we used were Suzuki GN125, Kawasaki Eliminator 125 or 250 (not sure), Suzuki TU250, and the one I was on, a Suzuki GZ250. I'm going to try for the TU250 tomorrow. I didn't like the GZ250. Feet forward and rear brake was ABOVE the foot peg making it difficult to find. I'm used to pressing my toes down to depress the rear brake lever. I don't like cruisers.

Well, tomorrow will be the second class and more skills to learn. Should be fun.

[GSXR7ED]

Same Same

I think we are saying the same thing here. I was trying to express that I am taking the course because I want to learn and I do not plan on arguing with the instructor at all. Simply saying that if I take the course and still disagree with something then I will make an informed decision about the best course of action for me. This is in contrast to Redman who said he and the instructor had a discussion over something the instructor taught. I am not saying Redman is wrong to do so, I just won't be doing that. I'll listen and learn.

I have ridden motorcycles for many years, since I was 7 or 8 yrs. old, but there was a period of ten+ years when I did very little riding. I've been back at it for a couple of years but am aware that I have a lot to learn.

It's cool. No harm intended with my comments. Every time a sentence is prefaced with that line, it leads me to believe otherwise intended. But that's because I've seen it happen. No offense to you.

Sounds like you had an interesting class. We had one guy dump his bike coming to an emergency stop...instant fail. We had one female and 8 guys...all passed.

Enjoy the last day of class.


Ed

[tkent02]

I'm going to try for the TU250 tomorrow. I didn't like the GZ250. Feet forward and rear brake was ABOVE the foot peg making it difficult to find. I'm used to pressing my toes down to depress the rear brake lever. I don't like cruisers.

Hard to imagine they would use foot forward bikes as trainers, it's just so wrong. Probably they take what they can get. Get the TU 250 and give Earlfor a ride report when you finish!

[srg]

I had my first class today.

....

In addition, you apply the rear brake to create a drag affect which provides stability in circumstances where you must go slow and maintain control, such as a parking lot.

....

The instructor said this will not have an ill affect on the clutch since it is a wet clutch, unlike the clutch in a car that you definitely don't want to slip because you'll burn it up.

Nice story about it! My class didn't mention the drag affect thing, that's interesting. I'll have to try it. I had no problem with the clutch/throttle, as I drive a manual transmission car, but I did have trouble with the "going slow" maneuvers - The figure 8's at low speed and such. I suppose that comes with time/practice.

Almost all bikes have wet clutches, meaning the clutch plates are immersed in engine oil. That's why people recommend using engine oil with a JASO-MA certification, like Rotella T. JASO is the Japanese Automotive Standards Organization for use with 4-stroke motorcycle engines and wet clutches.

Riding a wet clutch wont stress it as badly as riding a dry clutch, but it still puts pressure on the springs and does wear the plates down, albeit a much slower rate. So generally, it's ok to do when learning. I'd be conscious not to get into a habit though.

[Redman]

.
.
.

Here's something I learned today. They called it something like riding using the friction zone (of the clutch). The clutch is let out slowly until the clutch starts to engage and once the bike moves forward keep the clutch in the friction zone without releasing it all the way out. .
.
.

But not for too long, and not reving engine too much.

THe important thing to learn (and you have) is that the clutch does not have only two positions (pulledin, let out) but has many positions.
I like to explain the many positions like this:
- Pulled in.
- let out to were barley grabbing.
- little little bit more.
- little bit more
- little bit more
- little bit more
- little bit more
- and little bit more till fully engaged (all these "little bit more" over not much range)
- then all the way out

Do tell us about the 2nd day.

I too saw one person give up after having some trouble.
And another person was having great trouble, was running wild across the course, come to an abrupt stop with engine reving yet, and dump it. YIKES. Had one instructor give some individual instruction away from everyone else for most of the afternoon, and was told not to return for the next day. Which I though was the instructors going "above and beyond".

One teenage boy, that claimed to have "dirt bike experience" was having trouble, and his mom, who stated no experience, was doing great. Eventually he did okay.


When I had my conversation with the instructor, he had asked me why I keep two fingers on the controls. Maybe he meant why was I not doing it like he suggested. I said I figured that was good advice for a novice, but I was following recommendation of the Hurt Report (1982?), and have that habit, and kept reverting back to that habit. (I was not purposely trying to be defiant, just wasn't making much effort to change.) That is when instructor put his arm across my shoulder, and his face right in my helmet openings, and said that I could do it how ever I wanted after the class, but many points will be deducted during the test if I don't do it that way there. Oh. Okay, I understand.

.

[GSXR7ED]

Replies

So, the instructor has you do something "off the wall" in your opinion...Big Deal. Do it and move on. It's amazing how critical humans can be when it comes to A Teaching Method on a subject that is already being practiced. (Make sense?)

Ed

When I had my conversation with the instructor, he had asked me why I keep two fingers on the controls. Maybe he meant why was I not doing it like he suggested. I said I figured that was good advice for a novice, but I was following recommendation of the Hurt Report (1982?), and have that habit, and kept reverting back to that habit. (I was not purposely trying to be defiant, just wasn't making much effort to change.) That is when instructor put his arm across my shoulder, and his face right in my helmet openings, and said that I could do it how ever I wanted after the class, but many points will be deducted during the test if I don't do it that way there. Oh. Okay, I understand.

.

OMG! That is pretty much why I said what I said above Redman's conversation with the instructor's recommendations. {Do it and move on} Lord knows I wouldn't wanna pay for an MSF Course only to have a possible Failing Grade due to me "not following instruction".



Ed

[winfield]

Day 2

Well, it's over. Today we met at 7 am in order to complete one of the skills we should have finished the first day. In addition, we had 8 more skills to learn and practice for today, plus finish the book part of it.

This day was much more fun for two reasons. First, we combined several skills at a time which meant we were actually riding without stopping a lot more. Some of these skills were emergency stopping, short u-turns (basically figure 8s), estimating proper speed into a turn after acceleration requiring braking prior to entry into the turn, turning head and looking at the destination, and roll on the throttle. Other skills were swerving to miss an obstacle, practicing outside-inside-outside on different radius turns (90 degrees and 135 degrees), riding over an object (a 2 x 4), and other things I don't recall right now.

The test consisted of two separate courses. We practiced them both about four times apiece before the tests were administered. The first test began with acceration to 12-15 mph and go between two cones. At the cones you were to begin an emergency stop and stop as quickly as possible. They measure the distance of the stop and took points off if you didn't meet certain parameters. You then circled around to another starting point that led to the part with the double u-turns that had to be completed within a boxed-in area. This was accomplished using the friction zone-elevated rpms-drag on back brake method. After completing the u-turns (figure 8) you accelerated and shifted into second gear reaching a speed between 12-18 mph (yes, flying I know). Maintain that speed until you go between two cones at which point you had to swerve right, then left, which straightened you up, and then stop as quickly as possible (clutch-downshift-brake-brake-stop).

The second course started with a sweeping turn through which you shifted into 2nd gear and accelerated to 12-18 mph. Once reaching speed you needed to slow to a speed that would allow you to enter a 135 degree turn and roll on the throttle and out the other end while staying between the cones and lines. They were looking for smoothness in the turn as you roll on, not off and on the throttling. They also timed you through this course to see if you completed it within the specified time. In other words, you had to do it with a certain speed.

It was clear during the practice that several riders really had trouble with the u-turns and a couple riders just had trouble riding efficiently at all. The truck driver was having the most trouble. I don't think he ever reached over 10 mph in any of the practice sessions. He wobbled often, put his feet down, and stopped where he wasn't supposed to or failed to stop when required. At the start of the test we were told that putting a foot down or riding outside the lines or any other number of riding errors would result in point deductions--even not attaining the target mph range. Only two things would result in automatic disqualification: 1) purposely operating the bike in an unsafe manner; 2) crashing or dropping the bike in the test. If you got enough deductions you could also fail.

Well the first guy maneuvered each of the tests almost without error. Both of the remaining women had lots of trouble with the u-turns going outside of the box. One needed a second try at the emergency stop, resulting in deductions. One of the men also went way wide on the u-turns but did alright on the rest of the course, though with difficulty. The truck driver began the u-turns and could not coordinate the friction zone higher revs and rear brake drag. In the first turn he began to wobble and then the bike dumped over. He rolled head over heels and then picked himself up off the pavement. We were told to shut off our bikes. The instructor picked up his bike and both instructors walked the truckdriver inside the building. He came out a short time later carrying his stuff and he said good bye and left the premises. He was DQ'd. Everyone else made it through the course, some with difficulty. I made it through the u-turns with relative smoothness and then accelerated. I missed second gear but hit it very quickly and then approached the place to swereve and stop and had no trouble. I had no trouble with the second course.

All 6 of us passed the skills tests. The we went in for the written test. When it was over, we could ask the instructor to see our scores. I received no deductions in the skill tests and a 100% on the written test. I got my MSF card with a perfect score. I must say that with the experience I have, the skills came fairly easily to me. I did need one time through a skill before I could do it smoothly. I did learn from the course and found it worthwhile. I took the course for my own self-improvement. I already have my licence and was not forced to take it because of a traffic violation. I would consider doing the next level course with my own bike. I recommend the course to both novice and experienced riders. Especially if you are like me and went several years without riding and picked it up again. It will refresh your skills.

There is my report. Questions or comments?

[winfield]

Tu250

Hard to imagine they would use foot forward bikes as trainers, it's just so wrong. Probably they take what they can get. Get the TU 250 and give Earlfor a ride report when you finish!

I agree, TKent02. In fact, on my evaluation of the course I said it could be improved by doing away with the cruiser type bikes and only using bikes that have a standard bike sitting position. To ask beginners to maneuver a bike for the first time from a sitting position that makes control more difficult does not make sense to me. I suppose they do this for two reasons: 1) they were able to purchase cruiser-types for a cheap price; 2) they know many of their students will purchase cruisers after the class so they want them to get used to riding them. The Suzuki GN125 had a good sitting position, though the handle bars are back a little too far for me. The Suzuki TU250 was more like it. Looks like a Triumph and has the standard bike sitting position. Rear brake lever is situated under the foot peg and just in front of it for easy operation with a downward motion of the toes, unlike the GZ250 I rode the first day.

The second day was much more enjoyable and perhaps the main reason is because they had 2 TU250s and I got to ride one of them on the second day instead of the Suzuki GZ250. Have I mentioned that I hate cruisers? This is for Earlfor. This is a fuel injected bike. It fired right up and idled perfectly. The controls were all very accessible and worked as they should. We were only allowed to use first and second gears. My rider is a Z1 so how do I compare a 250? I can't comment on the spread of all 5 gears since I only used two. In order to get to 15-20 mph you need to shift into second. It is very easy to shift (despite my mistake mentioned in other post), runs smoothly and responds well to the throttle. The seat has two pads. I would have liked the first pad to be a little longer/further back. I am 6 ft tall, and weigh 200 and none-of-your business. Actually, in the upper 200s. The seat leaves a little to be desired as my behind got a bit tired during all the skill practice. Though I doubt Suzuki expected someone of my size to ride this bike. My legs were a bit cramped on the bike but I generally like the sitting position. The other thing I would ad is that the handle bars were a little narrow for me. A smaller guy may find them to be perfect, but I like a little bit wider bar. I liked the distance the bars were from me after sitting on that cruiser the first day and having the bars swooped back and turned slightly inward. I like to reach forward for the handlebars and with a slight lean. Hardly any weight on wrists.

If money were no object I would not hesitate to get this as a starter bike for my teenage son. It is docile and works smoothly. It does not present any unnecessary complication to the learning process for a new rider. Plus, it looks like a classic motorcycle. Earlfor, or any others, do you have any questions?

[earlfor]

If money were no object I would not hesitate to get this as a starter bike for my teenage son. It is docile and works smoothly. It does not present any unnecessary complication to the learning process for a new rider. Plus, it looks like a classic motorcycle. Earlfor, or any others, do you have any questions?

I like the looks of that little rascal, traditional, naked and simple. The TU250 looks like a smaller version of a GS425 I bought new many years ago. It does look notably smaller though. Maybe the rider in this picture is just really big however. LOL Hopefully I would fit. heh eh

[BigD_83]

...and they are fuel-injected, if I remember correctly. Thought about replacing the Rebel with one, as my vertically-challenged girlfriend really grooves on the style and size.

That rider has to be quite tall as I'm 5'10", and didn't feel it was particularly small.

[winfield]

...and they are fuel-injected, if I remember correctly. Thought about replacing the Rebel with one, as my vertically-challenged girlfriend really grooves on the style and size.

That rider has to be quite tall as I'm 5'10", and didn't feel it was particularly small.

Yes, FI. Started up nicely and purred at an idle. I think the rider in Earlfor's post is less than 6 ft because when I sat on the bike I could feel the second pad of the seat touching my behind. Wasn't uncomfortable, but I noticed it. The other guy in the class who rode the TU250 was also 6 ft but thin--didn't have a belly. He was also back against the pad and overall he looked a bit too tall for the bike.

[mrbill5491]

I lucked out on my MSF course. The course was laid out on an abandon runway at the old airport, so we had room to spare. Enough room so that all the riders could be doing something different and two instructors to watch over 7 of us. One of the neat things we did were some moderate to high speed runs on the runways. Some of us got up to about 70 and left the others behind lol. We also played follow the leader. One of the instructors would lead on a bike and we just follow him all over the old airport. On pavement, off pavement, get some speed, corners we had it all. I believe the bike I had was a Suzuki GS450 or something like that. It was the only bike that really fit me, the others were too small, mostly 250s. We had a mix of every Japanese make it seemed.