How Many Practice?

[dpep]

Whether bicycle or motorcycle I believe most people learn counter steering by the seat of their pants. If it isn't going the direction you want with the wheels pointed in one direction you move it to the other. The behavior always gets rewarded and the instinct quickly develops.

[rphillips]

I've never been on a MotoGP bike, and don't see what you're seeing in that picture, but that seems to make no sense. If what you're say'in is correct, that rider steers right to get the bike leaned into the left turn, (which is correct) then when gets leaned far enough he starts steering left to go left? Nope, if he starts steering even less right (not near steering left), his bike will start straightening back up trending the opposite direction.. For me counter steer starts at appx. 17 mph and never goes away till back under appx. 17 mph. As always, just my opinion.... And like Don said, most learn counter steer by the seat of their pants. I learned it yrs. ago while a kid on a bicycle, but never realized I was actually steering right to go left till someone pointed it out to me many yrs later. Since then I've pointed it out to several folks, that like me had no clue till I showed them.

[Suzukian]

I've never been on a MotoGP bike, and don't see what you're seeing in that picture, but that seems to make no sense. If what you're say'in is correct, that rider steers right to get the bike leaned into the left turn, (which is correct) then when gets leaned far enough he starts steering left to go left? Nope, if he starts steering even less right (not near steering left), his bike will start straightening back up trending the opposite direction.. For me counter steer starts at appx. 17 mph and never goes away till back under appx. 17 mph. As always, just my opinion.... And like Don said, most learn counter steer by the seat of their pants. I learned it yrs. ago while a kid on a bicycle, but never realized I was actually steering right to go left till someone pointed it out to me many yrs later. Since then I've pointed it out to several folks, that like me had no clue till I showed them.

You need to study gyroscopic precession. I don't know how far you lean your bike over, but when on the edge, or leaned over quite a bit, very slight movements to the left will steer the bike to the let, and the opposite is true. It is only when a large movement happens that the input is felt 90 degrees from the force of the input which is what Gyroscopic precession is.

It isn't worth arguing the point. If you don't understand it, that's fine, I'm not here to be your teacher. Please, don't ever fly a helicopter though, you will gt in trouble fast. Gyroscopic Precession plus the P-Factor is what causes tail dragging aircraft to ground loop. This is also why you see the controls for the squash plate on a helicopter on the back and side of it. When Igor Sikorsky figured this out, he finally mounted a tail rotor, which does not prevent the helicopter for spinning around, it allows the helicopter to fly forward without corkscrewing, because of gyroscopic precession, and the advancing blade into the air flow getting more lift than the retreating blade.

Once the desired angle is reached, it is very slight movements right being right, and left being left, that adjusts you position in the curve. If it wasn't, every time you moved the handlebar you'd flop right back over, and that doesn't happen, right?

The Center of Gravity gets moved forward and to the right of a counter clockwise rotating rotary wing. Small movements are sometimes done by the Hotas, depending on the helicopter is set up. Something you do by the feel of your pants is not something you may be able to put down in words, but what I posted is what is happening. If you watched the latest MotorGP races, you could see exactly when the bike was about to be thrown away by the position of the wheel, if you know what you are looking for..

It's not what I see in the picture. It's what you don't see. As long as you don't crash your bike, keep doing what you are doing, and disregard everything I have posted. They are just words.

[1978GS750E]

You need to study gyroscopic precession. I don't know how far you lean your bike over, but when on the edge, or leaned over quite a bit, very slight movements to the left will steer the bike to the let, and the opposite is true. It is only when a large movement happens that the input is felt 90 degrees from the force of the input which is what Gyroscopic precession is.

It isn't worth arguing the point. If you don't understand it, that's fine, I'm not here to be your teacher. Please, don't ever fly a helicopter though, you will gt in trouble fast. Gyroscopic Precession plus the P-Factor is what causes tail dragging aircraft to ground loop. This is also why you see the controls for the squash plate on a helicopter on the back and side of it. When Igor Sikorsky figured this out, he finally mounted a tail rotor, which does not prevent the helicopter for spinning around, it allows the helicopter to fly forward without corkscrewing, because of gyroscopic precession, and the advancing blade into the air flow getting more lift than the retreating blade.

Once the desired angle is reached, it is very slight movements right being right, and left being left, that adjusts you position in the curve. If it wasn't, every time you moved the handlebar you'd flop right back over, and that doesn't happen, right?

The Center of Gravity gets moved forward and to the right of a counter clockwise rotating rotary wing. Small movements are sometimes done by the Hotas, depending on the helicopter is set up. Something you do by the feel of your pants is not something you may be able to put down in words, but what I posted is what is happening. If you watched the latest MotorGP races, you could see exactly when the bike was about to be thrown away by the position of the wheel, if you know what you are looking for..

It's not what I see in the picture. It's what you don't see. As long as you don't crash your bike, keep doing what you are doing, and disregard everything I have posted. They are just words.

Wow! You better start studying gyroscropic precession before you get on that darn motorbike again! And for sure don't fly your helicopter! That's all I got.

[Suzukian]

I had to give you a "Like" on your comment, you sincerely deserved it!

[ptegsotic]

You counter steer to get the bike over, once there, very light left to right motions adjust your position in the lean, at that point, left is left, right is right, but if you pull on the left handlebar, and pull on the right, you'll stand right up.

ok, got it.

[trent]

You need to study gyroscopic precession. I don't know how far you lean your bike over, but when on the edge, or leaned over quite a bit, very slight movements to the left will steer the bike to the let, and the opposite is true. It is only when a large movement happens that the input is felt 90 degrees from the force of the input which is what Gyroscopic precession is.

It isn't worth arguing the point. If you don't understand it, that's fine, I'm not here to be your teacher. Please, don't ever fly a helicopter though, you will gt in trouble fast. Gyroscopic Precession plus the P-Factor is what causes tail dragging aircraft to ground loop. This is also why you see the controls for the squash plate on a helicopter on the back and side of it. When Igor Sikorsky figured this out, he finally mounted a tail rotor, which does not prevent the helicopter for spinning around, it allows the helicopter to fly forward without corkscrewing, because of gyroscopic precession, and the advancing blade into the air flow getting more lift than the retreating blade.

Once the desired angle is reached, it is very slight movements right being right, and left being left, that adjusts you position in the curve. If it wasn't, every time you moved the handlebar you'd flop right back over, and that doesn't happen, right?

The Center of Gravity gets moved forward and to the right of a counter clockwise rotating rotary wing. Small movements are sometimes done by the Hotas, depending on the helicopter is set up. Something you do by the feel of your pants is not something you may be able to put down in words, but what I posted is what is happening. If you watched the latest MotorGP races, you could see exactly when the bike was about to be thrown away by the position of the wheel, if you know what you are looking for..

It's not what I see in the picture. It's what you don't see. As long as you don't crash your bike, keep doing what you are doing, and disregard everything I have posted. They are just words.

All this,,, and I'm still trying to figure how Fred's back wheel/roller stays on. LOL.

Never mind how Fred steers this thing?


Screenshot_20230715_145524_Chrome.jpg

[Suzukian]

I remember an Episode where he picked up the car and pointed it in another direction.

[rphillips]

As said I never been on a MotoGP bike, never been in a Helecopter nor studied gyroscopics, and as I said, just voicing my opinion. I have scraped a few pegs and exhaust from to time, in the past. Every time I was leaned that much, either way, was the same, turn right to straighten up and to left and steer left to straighten up and to right.. Leaning far left you constantly are applying right pressure to handlebars keeping the front wheel ever so slightly to the right and keeping the bike leaned down to the left. Any slight release of that pressure to the right, it lets the wheel turn slightly back towards the center, and the bike starts raising up and to the right, and we haven't got to the point the wheel is pointing left yet. I'm trying to imagine how it may feel to be hard into a left turn, applying right pressure to the handlebar to keep leaned in, then thinking now I need to start putting pressure to the left to make the bike turn more to the left... Just hard to imagine... If that's correct, there has got to be a place where you input is completely neutral, the point where you are changing from right pressure to left pressure would need to be a place where no pressure either way.... Just another thought, if you're now turning the wheel to the left to go left, which way will you need to apply pressure to the handlebar get the bike's lean angle straightened back up and to the right? Normally it's done by pressure to the left, but now you've already got pressure to the left. Probably not confusing if you know the Gyroscopic Precession and P-Factors, but terribly confusing for me.

[trent]

I remember reading about the leaning, and countersteering and all that, it wasn't a long drawn out description of what to do.

But I looked at it as something that others and myself do naturally, but the explanation and understanding of what's going on I think was a good learning process and furthered not only safety but a better riding experience.

[Suzukian]

You're doing it right naturally. That slight left movement that brings the bike to the left, will pick up the bike, push the left handlebar, pull on the right, kind of a rotation, and this will lift the bike right up, or over to the other extreme if you keep going. It's that tiny "neutral area that you are adjusting your line in the turn. This little area is on the edge of a knife, and is where in MotoGP the guys crash, as the band is so narrow, if you are too far over, there's no tire left. You have stated exactly what I am trying to state, and you are riding exactly as you should be, by what you describe to me. Like I said, do what you do to keep yourself with the rubber on the road, as when you're on this edge, you don't think about theory, you just do what your muscle memory has taught you is the right thing to do. You still being here means you are doing the right thing.

[rphillips]

It's obvious around here how often I get confused!!!...1st "That slight left movement (turning wheel left) that brings the bike to the left, will pick up the bike... 2nd "push the left handlebar, pull on the right (turns wheel to right) and this will lift the bike right up. 1 says turning left will pick up the bike, then 2 says turn turning to right will lift the bike right up. Turning the wheel either direction will have the same effect is just hard to understand... No matter, as long as what I'm doing keeps working, just a little longer, all should be good. I guess the Gyroscopic Precession and P-Factors are like Algebra never understood them, but guess It's OK that I didn't.

[Rob S.]

I'm just going to print all of these directions on cards that my passengers can read to me over my shoulder as we're leaning deep into turns.

What could go wrong?

[JMHJ]

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2014/october/flight-training-magazine/technique--left-turning-tendencies

[JMHJ]

To me the gyroscopic thing on a bike means it wants to stand up (you know, applicable at some minimum speed probably). Haven't thought about it related to aircraft propellers in a long time.

If you're leaning in a turn, you've got to keep that happening best of my memory. And you stand it up/change direction quicker by doing the opposite of what got you leaned over/turning, best of my understanding.

If you hang off to the inside of a turn, the bike stands up some...

In an airplane you've got to use a bit of opposite aileron to maintain your desired bank angle. Oversimplification I'm sure, and totally irrelevant, heh.

Given me more to think about next time I'm out.