3 more dead (Lithium fire)

[earlfor]

Dang appx. 10 yrs. ago, hoverboards banned from airplanes because the lithium-ion batteries were known to catch fire while just sitting idle, not being charged, used or anything, just sitting there? I'd have thought somebody would have found and fixed this problem by now... I guess not.

Batteries not being used, charged or discharged, and bursting into flames is not believable. There seem to be a lot of people that are unable to operate a battery safely. heh eh

[rphillips]

I wondered the same...But then I can't imagine riding or charging a hoverboard in the luggage compt. of an airplane where they have been banned from for yrs.

[Grimly]

Batteries not being used, charged or discharged, and bursting into flames is not believable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_6

[Rob S.]

Batteries not being used, charged or discharged, and bursting into flames is not believable.

I have no trouble believing it.

[rphillips]

I don't know, for me it'd just be a guess !

[bccap]

Batteries not being used, charged or discharged, and bursting into flames is not believable. There seem to be a lot of people that are unable to operate a battery safely. heh eh

I had a weird one happen. I was watching TV with my tablet unplugged and sitting upright in a cradle on the coffee table in front of me . Suddenly the screen explodes and the tablet splits in half ..... The battery didn't explode it just blew up like a balloon and broke the screen and expanded enough to separate the tablet into two halves.....I took it out to the bins in the alley right away. I wasn't planning on waiting around for the next development of continued expansion ,.....

[rphillips]

Yep. we hear of these things every now and then, but it happens rarely enough we usually don't know anybody it actually happened to... Your experience makes it much easier for me to believe.

[Jedz123]

So converting our first generation Insight's from NiMH to LiFePO4 technology a is a big discussion that some of us are reluctant to take the leap, just because of the fire risk. The performance and long term use of LiFEPo4 is far superior to NiMH technology. If there is a short or charge issue the LiFePO4 will easily catch on fire where as the NiMH will get hot but it will likely only lead to going up in smoke and not burning the car inside out, a lithium fire in an all aluminum car is not a good thing...

Regardless many have took the plunge, increased the power output of their IMA system and have a better regulated charging system.

I decided it wasn't worth the risk and went with NiMH cells when i rebuilt my IMA battery. I did go 8.0 Amp/hr vs the stock 6.5 Amp/hr. Performance is negligible but it means less wear and tear on the cell so they will last 30-50% longer (most of these NiMH only last 10-12 years so that's 15-20 years... maybe more)

Battery technology is just exploding and those of us restoring and running now nearly 25 year old hybrids are taking the plunge to integrate to LiFePO4 but the NiMH game has also advanced to offer not as great performance as Lithium but your guaranteed not not wake up to a burning car...

The 24 year old 6.0 AMP/HR NiMH cels are tried, corroded and are coming out of the pack:


The new 8.0AMP/HR cells are going in! They should last for the rest of the life of the car. 15 Years or so.


As stated, most people don't understand the technology and just buy it thinking it is safe and reliable. When the truth is it's not always the case.

I understand the risks of Lithium and for me, right now I would rather loose some total Amp hours if it means my car won't combust.

Cheers,

[dpep]

I understand the risks of Lithium and for me, right now I would rather loose some total Amp hours if it means my car won't combust.

Cheers,

How do the two compare costwise? I am going to assume that just replacing cells in the existing NiMH battery is going to be more economical than buying a new full Lithium one. But how much difference might there be If you had to replace the whole battery with one or the other?

[Jedz123]

Cost from a consumer stand point: Both are about the same if your going new and you don't do your own pack rebuilds, roughly $2200 for a lithium kit (which is an intense install) or a complete "bolt-in" NiMH pack from a reputable battery supplier. However Bumblebee offers life time warranty on their NiMH 8.0AMP/hr custom battery packs. So if the battery goes then you get a new pack with them. The Lithium conversions are not offered by a company (just the cells) so it's your responsibility to replace cells when they head south.

In theory the Lithium will last longer if properly maintained which means grid charging is mandatory and allot of owner maintenance, testing, replacing bad cells early, etc. where the stock 6.5Amp/hr NiMH is not as picky (but they do last longer with grid charging). Say your just a turn key and drive kind of owner (like most) your going to see about 10 years or 100K miles out of both packs before they start to present issues, The Lithium could last closer to 150-200K miles but you have to really stay on top of your pack, daily. 8.0 Amp/hr NiMH battery will last just as long, again offered with a lifetime warranty so as long as the company stays in business your guaranteed a working battery. Also the data isn't there for the first gen Insights yet since these kits are new.

Lithium will offer more power and more consistent voltage and the batteries just turn off when dead. Where as the NiMH is peaky and saggy so if your battery meter is 1/2 there is a noticeable power output drop from the IMA electric motor. With lithium 1/2 battery will still deliver 144 volts until it just stops from being dead. Lithium also allows you to over drive your electric motor more dependably.

If your talking cost of cells and you rebuild your packs like I do. NiMH Cost is hands down cheaper. I bought my whole 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid for $400 because it was rotted through. Previous owner just purchased a 8.0 AMp/Hr battery a year prior so those cells are healthy and happy, holding 6.5-7.5 volts after sitting in my shop for nearly 8 months. I can also buy cells directly from Bumble bee that are standard used but good performing 6.0 AMp/Hr for about $400 +shipping for 20 sticks/cells. More obviously if you want new or 8.0 Amp/hr. The thing with these NiMH cells is they all don't go bad but only a few do and will cause the whole pack to not perform. Since the sticks are in series (20 * 7.25V sticks yielding a standard 144V battery pack) 1 or 2 sticks just don't contribute and will actually resist electric flow and in turn the IMA pack will fail. However you test each cell/stick and after charging if there is any sag you can just replace the dead or poor performing cells, put the pack together and the battery almost always comes back to life. FYI every singe cell in my original pack failed the test with the top performing sticks only yielding 5V tops Many dropping to 0V just hooking the voltmeter on to them.... Lithium Cost is much more because there are typical 3, 4 or 5 large cells/bricks , each cell has it's own internal monitoring charging and discharging system so the cost is much higher, $250-300 per cell on average. So if you do your own work and battery performance is not the top priority NiMH definitely offer the best value.

Safety- Well the title of the thread says it all. NiMH is safer all round, they don't ignite and burn like Lithium does, If there is ever a short circuit situation or overheating situation the worst case scenario is electrolyte will boil through and you loose a cell and you pack goes offline. Lithium... Well we all know what happens there in a short circuit situation or over heating situation.

Sorry for the Novel just allot of information to provide to properly answer your question Dpep.

[dpep]

Thanks for the detail. I assumed that like most things, particularly EV things that there would not be a simple one size fits all answer. I like the fact that previous generation technology still does the job quite well and can for some situations even be the best option.

After 100,000+ miles on the NiMH kit there may be an even newer technology that would allow you to skip over lithium altogether if you so choose.

[Rob S.]

After 100,000+ miles on the NiMH kit there may be an even newer technology that would allow you to skip over lithium altogether if you so choose.

Exactly. And one of the reasons the pace of EV sales is slowing may be that early adopters of new technology tend not to be near the median, or average users.

It's like when one political party jumps ahead early in the counting, then gets overtaken later in the process. The most fervent or fanatical supporters of any party or candidate tend to be the first ones to show up at the polls in the morning.

[wyly]

I get nervous on planes wondering if anyone has stored their electronics in the checked bags or overhead bins.

My son has a habit of leaving his electrical devices unattended on his bed, tablets and bedding is not a good combination. My bed caught fire when I was a kid and that experience has stayed with me, I'm very vigilant with electronics. My kids think I'm paranoid but I've noticed my Iphone 15 gets very hot when charging

Electronics are safe but you need to use your brain, don't cover them with bedding or store them in luggage.

[Rob S.]

A few years ago, my iPad survived a flight to the Caribbean in a checked bag. The way back, not so much (stolen). Won't make that mistake again.

[Rob S.]

New York City is up to 18 dead so far this year due to lithium ion fires.