Family estrangement

[argonsagas]

This article was a bit of a surprise to me.
It is not an unfamiliar subject, as my wife and are dealing with it, however the surprise was that it suggests family estrangement is fairly common and growing more so, whereas I thought it was quite unusual.

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20211201-family-estrangement-why-adults-are-cutting-off-their-parents?utm_source=pocket-newtab

[wyly]

I read that earlier today as well, discussed with the mrs as we both have this issue with our families. Her with a sister myself with two nieces, my sister and father, life is just easier cutting out problem family members. My bros and sisters warned me if I didn't patch things up with my father I'd regret our estrangement, we hadn't spoken for 20yrs and I never did speak to him again I had no regrets at his death. Physically, verbally and mentally abusive I still detest him 25yrs later, my only regret is growing up without a "father" even though he was always there. He did teach me something important however, how not to behave as a father. I've had issues with my own children as we all do but I/we make the effort to rethink our positions apologize if required and move on.

You can pick your friends but sadly not your family.

[trent]

Have a very close friend who has and continues to have problems with his family.

He breaks things off with them for years at a time, they call him and say they want to patch things up and everytime he gets stabbed in the back.

I tell him I would not fold and have anything to do with them...ever.

I was with him when a niece of his, who also has caused him much grief said to him "life to short to not sort things out"
I said life's to short to continue with the B.S.

In his case I mean it.

[GS1150Pilot]

My brother and I went through a nearly two year period of no communication after our father's death due to a compounded set of misunderstandings and a stubbornness on both of our parts regarding actually talking it out. We got past it and are on great terms these days. My sisters are the glue for the family, though-just as our mom was.

[wyly]

I was with him when a niece of his, who also has caused him much grief said to him "life to short to not sort things out"
I said life's to short to continue with the B.S.

In his case I mean it.

Family knows exactly what buttons to push to ruin your day and as you have a longer history with them it's easily triggered. If they weren't family would you ever consider having a friend that toxic?

[trent]

My brother and I went through a nearly two year period of no communication after our father's death due to a compounded set of misunderstandings and a stubbornness on both of our parts regarding actually talking it out. We got past it and are on great terms these days. My sisters are the glue for the family, though-just as our mom was.

It's kinda odd, but I've seen death in family cause great deal of anguish and division.

Some times I can see how that happens and other times there seems to be no reason....

[rphillips]

Until my later yrs. I didn't realize how often this happened... I never never ever ever ever, in history thought it could happen to me, but it did. ,

[trent]

Story time..

Childhood friend of mine, few years older than I

My friend has two older sisters, one 11 years older the other 8 years older.

Their parents split up early in my friends life, like six, seven years old.

Father remarried, mother never did.

My friend, being a boy bounced back and forth growing up between the parents (the parents lived a few blocks from one another)
The sisters being a bit older, hated the dad, a affair is what caused the split and the girls sided with mom and didn't speak to dad for years and years.

Faat forward mom gets ill, kinds dementia at 60? and left her home and went to assisted living center.

My friend rarely visited his mother, even way back before she was ill...his wife did later on but he never did...he did talk and see his father regularly however.

Mom's house set empty, for a while..until oldest sisters daughter and family needed a place to stay.

So it was agreed on, by all siblings (believe oldest sister was legally in charge) that my friends niece and family could live there and pay rent that went to some account

They had all agreed that niece could buy home when mother passes on.

After a strong storm came through and downed several large branched my friend went to moms house and didn't like what he seen, few broken or cracked windows, looking through window he seen damaged sheet rock and half painted rooms and filth..and yard not kept up.

He got a hold of the sister and spoke his concerns , my friend said he would hire someone to take care of storm damage and mow.....that's when sister came unglued and told him to mind his own business and reminded him that he never had anything to do with the mom.

Well my friend heard some rumors about no rent being paid and calls to the police from niece to his moms address. Domestic!!

My friend gets a lawyer to look into things and that only made things worse, lawyer caused all kinds problems...that even my friend didn't like.

Mother died, and niece moved to another town, the house was destroyed, what should have been a $225,000 house (not bad considering the location) went for a fraction of that,the house had to practically be gutted and remodled...there was even a fire in the house?

After the siblings went after each other in court, they got nearly nothing, and still hate each other...the sisters don't even talk to one another anymore...they were on same side?

Shame

[GSJim]

Have a very close friend who has and continues to have problems with his family.

He breaks things off with them for years at a time, they call him and say they want to patch things up and everytime he gets stabbed in the back.

I tell him I would not fold and have anything to do with them...ever.

I was with him when a niece of his, who also has caused him much grief said to him "life to short to not sort things out"
I said life's to short to continue with the B.S.

In his case I mean it.

The old "life is too short" line. My brother-in-law (wife's brother) is a real jerk who caused lots of issues with the father's estate. If you really want to have family issues, try to settle an estate. To this day he has never acknowledged or apologized for his actions. My wife and her sister see him socially now and then, with the comment "life is too short to stay angry". My answer is "life is too short to waste time with unapologetic entitled jerks". Needless to say, I don't get invited to his events. OK with me.

I don't see my brothers much, but there isn't any serious estrangement. It's just distance plus the lack of parents to hold the family together.

Jim

[wyly]

Estate settlements no doubt cause many estrangements I have firstt hand experience with that with my family and the wife's family. Seeing how ugly that can get my wife and I have started giving everything away while we're still alive the remainder will be taken care of in our will, we want our kids to stay on good terms.

My mother was the glue that held our family together after her passing there just wasn't any reason to return home, now we're spread across two continents and only see each other when we're passing through and often not even then.

[DaveR]

Sorry to hear that wyly.

It's just distance plus the lack of parents to hold the family together.

Jim

My sisters are the glue for the family, though-just as our mom was.

My experience also. Women instinctively understand the value of family and relationships. Men do too but blindside themselves with arrogance and misplaced pride.

[bwringer]

Sometimes estrangement is the only way to break a cycle of abuse, addiction, narcissism etc. It sucks but there are times when it's the healthiest option.

Maybe it's happening more "nowadays", and overall I think it's a good thing. There's a point where you have to protect yourself and your children and spouse.

Discussing and caring for your mental health is more acceptable in recent years, and that's as it should be.


That said, sure, a lot of estrangement doesn't need to happen. You should not tolerate abuse, but too many simple disagreements and misinderstandings have become years-long habit. And too many times bystanders liek spouses, siblings, etc. keep the problem simmering.

And I can think of many situations where people jumped to estrangement when setting limits and limiting contact could have been effective without going totally no-contact. But a lot of people don't have those skills, or the language.


My Mom was wonderful in many ways, but she had an overwhelming personality, and while not abusive, she could get very toxic. There were many times in adult life when I or my sister had to set very firm limits and follow through to protect ourselves and our families.

The first time was in my early 20s. I ordered her to leave my house when she wouldn't stop spewing racist garbage because I was dating a girl of a different race. She was shocked beyond belief, but she left, and the point stuck; she (mostly) kept a lid on the overt racism from then on. There were many similar instances later on where she crossed a line, and my sister or I had to call her out and set limits.

And we had lots of good times and good memories as well, things we would have missed if we didn't have the skills or words to handle Mom's bad side better. Ironically, we probably learned many of these skills from her (she did a lot of mental health counseling).



One current struggle we and many others are facing are the COVID-19 antivaxxers and assorted other loonies within our families.

We're still figuring out how to handle the fact that my wife's son and his family are not vaccinated (the kids may not have ever had any vaccinations at all; the communication skills all around are abysmal...).

Turns out they exposed us to COVID-19 during a Thanksgiving visit and the whole family was sick a few days later (everyone is recovering fine); my wife did not have symptoms or test positive, thanks to her booster a few weeks before. I had just gotten my booster three days before, so I developed very mild symptoms and tested positive (and I'm fine now too). But... we've discovered something pretty unpleasant we're going to need to figure out how to address.

And a lot of families have it worse... pro-plaguers have outright killed a LOT of grandmas, grandpas, aunts, uncles, parents, and children. I don't know how you'd get past that, honestly.

[argonsagas]

Sometimes estrangement is the only way to break a cycle of abuse, addiction, narcissism etc. It sucks but there are times when it's the healthiest option.

Maybe it's happening more "nowadays", and overall I think it's a good thing. There's a point where you have to protect yourself and your children and spouse.

Discussing and caring for your mental health is more acceptable in recent years, and that's as it should be.


That said, sure, a lot of estrangement doesn't need to happen. You should not tolerate abuse, but too many simple disagreements and misinderstandings have become years-long habit. And too many times bystanders liek spouses, siblings, etc. keep the problem simmering.

And I can think of many situations where people jumped to estrangement when setting limits and limiting contact could have been effective without going totally no-contact. But a lot of people don't have those skills, or the language.


My Mom was wonderful in many ways, but she had an overwhelming personality, and while not abusive, she could get very toxic. There were many times in adult life when I or my sister had to set very firm limits and follow through to protect ourselves and our families.

The first time was in my early 20s. I ordered her to leave my house when she wouldn't stop spewing racist garbage because I was dating a girl of a different race. She was shocked beyond belief, but she left, and the point stuck; she (mostly) kept a lid on the overt racism from then on. There were many similar instances later on where she crossed a line, and my sister or I had to call her out and set limits.

And we had lots of good times and good memories as well, things we would have missed if we didn't have the skills or words to handle Mom's bad side better. Ironically, we probably learned many of these skills from her (she did a lot of mental health counseling).



One current struggle we and many others are facing are the COVID-19 antivaxxers and assorted other loonies within our families.

We're still figuring out how to handle the fact that my wife's son and his family are not vaccinated (the kids may not have ever had any vaccinations at all; the communication skills all around are abysmal...).

Turns out they exposed us to COVID-19 during a Thanksgiving visit and the whole family was sick a few days later (everyone is recovering fine); my wife did not have symptoms or test positive, thanks to her booster a few weeks before. I had just gotten my booster three days before, so I developed very mild symptoms and tested positive (and I'm fine now too). But... we've discovered something pretty unpleasant we're going to need to figure out how to address.

And a lot of families have it worse... pro-plaguers have outright killed a LOT of grandmas, grandpas, aunts, uncles, parents, and children. I don't know how you'd get past that, honestly.

It is not something that is deliberately kept secret, but my wife and I seldom discuss family details outside of our home.
I never believed it was limited to us, but I did think family estrangement was unusual, until the article told me that almost the opposite is true.

Now, I see you effectively confirming the article, as your post includes multiple similarities to both my own and my wife's families.

Thanks for posting it.

[bwringer]

I'll give a semi-humorous example.

My Dad got interested in genealogy in the last several years of his life. He moved back to the area of northern Indiana where he grew up, where much of his family had been since the homestead act (around 1862) and some moved west from Ohio to buy sections (640 acres) of land. Some became fairly prosperous farmer. So he had easy access to county records, census records, graveyards, and even found some home sites. Much of the old family land is now under water, after Worster Lake in Potato Creek state park was created in 1977.

Anyway, using many different official sources, and scraps of stories and half-remembered hints from his parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. Dad was finally able to piece together the origin of our unusual surname, Wringer.

It turns out there were two brothers with the English surname Ringer. One was Matthias Ringer, and the other had a different name (I don't remember for sure) that also started with M, maybe Mark or Michael, something like that. Dad was able to find the county record where "M Ringer" officially changed his last name to "Wringer". Dad remembered stories that the two brothers hated each other (they had large farms on opposite ends of the county), he was tired of getting his brother's mail by mistake, and he wanted even less association with his brother. But he never heard exactly what the problem was.

It's a complex string of detective work through census and marriage records, but Dad figured out that an aunt and uncle with a daughter lived on the same farm with one of the M. Ringers for a while, then in the next record, she had moved to Matthias Ringer's farm and they were married. And in the next census, there were a couple of young Matthias Ringer children and M. Ringer had changed his name to Wringer.

So basically, their cousin moved from one farm to the other and then they got married. The "losing" brother changed his name to Wringer, and was estranged from his brother ever since. And no one would really discuss exactly why.

So that's one unusual source of family estrangement; jealousy over "stealing" the hot cousin. At least, it's the explanation that makes the most sense.

M. Wringer did end up getting married and having children later on (obviously, or else I wouldn't be here with his surname), but that fact that it's an "artificially created" family name and it was fairly recent in historic terms means that there are very, very few of us around. I am the only Brian Wringer on the planet.

First cousin marriage wasn't that unusual in those days; there are some in every family tree (I found another on my Dad's Mother's side, just after the Civil War), and it was even seen as a smart way to keep property in the family.

[wyly]

I'll give a semi-humorous example.

My Dad got interested in genealogy in the last several years of his life. He moved back to the area of northern Indiana where he grew up, where much of his family had been since the homestead act (around 1862) and some moved west from Ohio to buy sections (640 acres) of land. Some became fairly prosperous farmer. So he had easy access to county records, census records, graveyards, and even found some home sites. Much of the old family land is now under water, after Worster Lake in Potato Creek state park was created in 1977.

Anyway, using many different official sources, and scraps of stories and half-remembered hints from his parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. Dad was finally able to piece together the origin of our unusual surname, Wringer.

It turns out there were two brothers with the English surname Ringer. One was Matthias Ringer, and the other had a different name (I don't remember for sure) that also started with M, maybe Mark or Michael, something like that. Dad was able to find the county record where "M Ringer" officially changed his last name to "Wringer". Dad remembered stories that the two brothers hated each other (they had large farms on opposite ends of the county), he was tired of getting his brother's mail by mistake, and he wanted even less association with his brother. But he never heard exactly what the problem was.

It's a complex string of detective work through census and marriage records, but Dad figured out that an aunt and uncle with a daughter lived on the same farm with one of the M. Ringers for a while, then in the next record, she had moved to Matthias Ringer's farm and they were married. And in the next census, there were a couple of young Matthias Ringer children and M. Ringer had changed his name to Wringer.

So basically, their cousin moved from one farm to the other and then they got married. The "losing" brother changed his name to Wringer, and was estranged from his brother ever since. And no one would really discuss exactly why.

So that's one unusual source of family estrangement; jealousy over "stealing" the hot cousin. At least, it's the explanation that makes the most sense.

M. Wringer did end up getting married and having children later on (obviously, or else I wouldn't be here with his surname), but that fact that it's an "artificially created" family name and it was fairly recent in historic terms means that there are very, very few of us around. I am the only Brian Wringer on the planet.

I've a couple examples in my mothers family.

My aunt had a child when she was 15 or 16 back in the 1920's unwed mothers were scandalous so my grandmother took the baby and raised it as her own to save the family from shame. The baby girl grew up thinking she was my aunts sister, when she eventually found out the truth she cut herself off from the entire family and rebuffed any attempts by her cousins to repair damage, she was very bitter and died never resolving the estrangement.

Then there was my uncle a real a r s e, I disliked him long before we found that he had an illegitimate son who he refused to acknowledge his entire life. The next generation of cousins discovered the unknown cousin 50 some years later and invited him into the extended family undoing his fathers neglect, he's delighted with his new family.

First cousin marriage wasn't that unusual in those days; there are some in every family tree (I found another on my Dad's Mother's side, just after the Civil War), and it was even seen as a smart way to keep property in the family.

Cousin marriage was normal, our hunter gather ancestors all married their cousins, living in a group of 25-50 members they would all be close family. HG groups could be so isolated that even closer family pairings were not uncommon.

Occasionally two HG groups would come together and exchange members but they would be family as well, more likely 1st and 2nd cousins. I think that as our potential partner selection pool grew larger the cousin option became less appealing socially.