Ukraine russia invasion predictions

[LAB3]

Empires never see themselves as evil just superior to everyone else as they invade neighbours looting, raping, killing as they occupy other peoples lands. Then they erect statues of the mass murders that created their empires and slaughtered those that resisted. Victors get to write history not losers. Genghis Khan, Caesar, Alexander, Tamurlane, Charles the Great and just about any other conquering hero were all genocidal murderers.

How true! People here in the U.S. rarely if ever take a look at the side effects at what it takes to keep the fat on their butts and the gas in their cars. Let's face it, we took a major hit to our reputation in Iraq and few if any will ever look into the conditions the average person lived under in Cuba before the Americans where run out. Everyone in the developed world should take a look at those who are disaffected by what it takes to secure their personal comfort. I'm not expecting people to find reasons to feel guilty, just take one for the team (humanity) and be objective. Then, if you feel strongly enough, take some action in your personal life to lessen those effects. You're not going to eliminate the suffering you may indirectly cause others but you can certainly diminish it.

[LAB3]

Did NATO push Ukraine in a war? This nine-ish minute video gives some insight into the current situation from the Russian point of view. This seems to be pretty much propaganda free and a well balanced take on things, well worth the time to give us something else to consider.

[earlfor]

If Ukraine had been a member of NATO, I don't see this situation as happening. That would have meant Putin was, for all intent, invading the 30 nations of NATO.

[LAB3]

If Ukraine had been a member of NATO, I don't see this situation as happening. That would have meant Putin was, for all intent, invading the 30 nations of NATO.

If the U.S. hadn't been part of NATO perhaps The Ukraine would be. The world we wish for doesn't always mirror the one we actually live.

[wyly]

If Ukraine had been a member of NATO, I don't see this situation as happening. That would have meant Putin was, for all intent, invading the 30 nations of NATO.

IF the USA, UK and Canada had left their military training units in Ukraine this invasion may have not happened.

Use Putins red line tactics on him, "If any of our troops are injured NATO will consider it an act of war". Ukraine being a non aligned country it had the right to invite other military units onto it's soil. A few thousand UK, USA and Canadian troops with air support stationed there would've given Putin something to think about. But that's all hindsight now.

[GSXR7ED]

European History

If Ukraine had been a member of NATO, I don't see this situation as happening. That would have meant Putin was, for all intent, invading the 30 nations of NATO.

"If, is the middle word in life" - great line from Apocalypse Now!

It is troubling to understand why Ukraine was not accepted/delayed membership into NATO. I'd have to verify some theories but was Ukraine's government too corrupt?

Apparently, Georgia & Ukraine began a formal process in 2008 known as the NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP). The president at the time, Yanukovych was against it--wanted to be more inline with Russia; he was later ousted in 2014 after the Euromaidan protests. Seems the conflict was to either fall in line with Russia (Eurasian Economic Union) or the European Union.

Seems as though the country is undecided on who they want to align themselves with...but I'm sure it's bad actors in leadership positions who are making those decisions and not the population.

European History is an important aspect to understanding current events.

Ed

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[earlfor]

It is troubling to understand why Ukraine was not accepted/delayed membership into NATO.

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I'm inclined towards the answer is because of Russian opposition to NATO inclusion of Ukraine and soviet suggestion of war if they were.

No one was willing to risk provoking the bear.

Of the 30 Nations in NATO, 11 are
"local" to Russia and would have been choices for acquisition (Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, and North Macedonia). They are off the table consequently.

Ukraine was eventually going to be included in the union. Unfortunately, at this time, it was unprotected and a cherry ripe for the picking and thought to have few consequences from an overthrow. Russia sought to grab it now, before the chess piece was moved off the board. All things considered, they have few and declining choices for land grabs and take overs in today's democratically moving world. The Russian people too are slowly moving towards more democratic representation.

I would say that Ukrainian government in the past has partially been "corrupt" and/or soviet leaning, but the current one is not. There would be no war if it had been.

[Buffalo Bill]

If Ukraine had been a member of NATO, I don't see this situation as happening. That would have meant Putin was, for all intent, invading the 30 nations of NATO.

How serious is NATO leadership fighting a war?
Are they just a bunch of shoppers and shop owners, who just and only wanna keep their markets open for business?

[earlfor]

How serious is NATO leadership fighting a war?
Are they just a bunch of shoppers and shop owners, who just and only wanna keep their markets open for business?

That's the $64K question. Considering sanctions, I would say no.

[wyly]

I'm inclined towards the answer is because of Russian opposition to NATO inclusion of Ukraine and soviet suggestion of war if they were.

No one was willing to risk provoking the bear.

Of the 30 Nations in NATO, 11 are
"local" to Russia and would have been choices for acquisition (Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, and North Macedonia). They are off the table consequently.

Ukraine was eventually going to be included in the union. Unfortunately, at this time, it was unprotected and a cherry ripe for the picking and thought to have few consequences from an overthrow. Russia sought to grab it now, before the chess piece was moved off the board. All things considered, they have few and declining choices for land grabs and take overs in today's democratically moving world. The Russian people too are slowly moving towards more democratic representation.

I would say that Ukrainian government in the past has partially been "corrupt" and/or soviet leaning, but the current one is not. There would be no war if it had been.

Gaining membership in NATO has requirements that must be met before admission is accepted.

"To join the Alliance, nations are expected to respect the values of the North Atlantic Treaty, and to meet certain
political, economic and military criteria, set out in the Alliance’s 1995 Study on Enlargement. These criteria
include a functioning democratic political system based on a market economy; fair treatment of minority
populations; a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully; an ability and willingness to make a military
contribution to NATO operations; and a commitment to democratic civil-military relations and institutions."

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2016_07/20160627_1607-factsheet-enlargement-eng.pdf

Ukraine also wants to join the EU immediately but that's a far more difficult and long process. Turkey applied in 1991 and his still hasn't been approved.

[wyly]

How serious is NATO leadership fighting a war?
Are they just a bunch of shoppers and shop owners, who just and only wanna keep their markets open for business?

that's nearly every country now, the world is now predominately urban. A planet of shopkeepers.

[Cipher]

Ukraine is still in the game due to US sat and other intel as well as a possible safe haven landing area in Romania.
As for NATO overstepping its authority with a no fly zone its definitely beyond its mandate and a just reason for Russia to escalate

[LAB3]

As for NATO overstepping its authority with a no fly zone its definitely beyond its mandate and a just reason for Russia to escalate

THAT is the sticking point. It's probably a good thing you can't join the day you get invaded, it's a bad thing that an adjacent country can exert enough influence to keep you from doing it.

[Cipher]

THAT is the sticking point. It's probably a good thing you can't join the day you get invaded, it's a bad thing that an adjacent country can exert enough influence to keep you from doing it.

well poland bulgaria and slovakia aregifting 70 su 25 and mig 29s
hell of a jolt in that the ukrainians already have the means to service and fly them.
ANd of course without skipping a beat the sales guys from General Dynamics et al are already in the donor countries signing contracts one hope\imagines.

[GSXR7ED]

well poland bulgaria and slovakia aregifting 70 su 25 and mig 29s
hell of a jolt in that the ukrainians already have the means to service and fly them.
ANd of course without skipping a beat the sales guys from General Dynamics et al are already in the donor countries signing contracts one hope\imagines.

I believe the US & UK were in country prior to the bombardment, for training purposes. What sort of training? Well, probably the kind in preparation for this kind of predicament.

As for the GD salesman, the product sells itself...it may be that the salesman was requested--but that's privileged information.

Ed

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