Shifting issue?

[Guest]

Ok on the ride home as I would sit at a light in nuetral there a couple of times i could not shift into first without rolling the bike and when it does go into gear it doesn't have that nice click that normally does. There are no other shifting issues and it has done this one other time in the entire year i have owned it so i have no variables to present. Every other time i eide it i get that nice click into gear.

Now the only thing i can thing of is i put a very little Marvel Mystery Oil in the crank case. I use Rotella 15-40. Again i can't say this is causing it. The clutch is adjusted at the lever so i can fit a nickle in it and it is very positive with good feel. I do not ride this bike hard at all. N

Ideas?

[eil]

I would not recommend sitting at a stop light in neutral. If someone comes at you, it's going to take you a second or two to get into gear. Seconds that could mean the difference between getting out of their way and becoming a hood ornament. There's only one stop light along my commute where I will go into neutral because the light is literally almost a five minute wait and I will only do it if there is also one car directly ahead and one car directly behind me. (And it's still probably not a fantastic idea.)

Not being able to shift into gear at a standstill is pretty common and if you've been riding for a while, I would be surprised if this is the first time it's happened to you. To get the dogs in the transmission to engage, you can either roll the bike like you did, or you can let out the clutch lever a bit while pushing down on the shift lever with your foot. The clutch lever is quicker and less work but only works if the engine is running.

As the name implies, Marvel Mystery Oil is for the superstitious. The engine will run great on the Rotella alone.

[John Park]

It's also a good idea to leave enough room between you and the car ahead to ride out to the side; if you're right on a bumper you may as well be in neutral.

I did that once when I stopped in a traffic jam on the Pasadena Freeway. I heard the squeal of tires behind me and had to physically lift the [Honda 450] front wheel, slam it into gear and wheelie up onto the landscaping. Where I had been was now was a tangle of car bits. I rode on, but when I went to shift down at an off ramp I found that I'd broken the shifter pawl and it was stuck in fifth. It was a borrowed bike but my friend was fine about it after he realized the other option was to have a sixteen inch long motorcycle - and a funeral to go to. He also worked at a Honda shop….

It's things like this that teach you to do 360 degree awareness riding - assuming you survive the learning process.

[jeffgs]

Think I left myself open on this one............

I pull as far right when stopped as I possibly can and watch the mirrors very closely, index finger on the clutch. If you rode with me you might call me Grandma.

My concern was just the difficulty in getting it to shift into first, even the shifter is difficult to push. I am really trying to do this bike right, it is old and I expect "old things", it is part of the charm of the bike.

[Gorminrider]

Yes, I get caught with this too on one bike when it warms up. 1st canbe hard to get down too when not in motion and I feel pretty stupid rocking the bike backnforth when the light turns green and I wasn't getting ready on the yellow of the opposing traffic. Lights can be awfully long. I might want to pick my nose or something ...

We can try to adjust the clutch at handlebars a little bit when warmed up just in case that's it....but I still think there's a trick to it ...try revving your way to first while braking, even if you are not going to use 1st ...then , if you can lift to neutral while you wait, It should go back in the way it came out when you need it.

If it's really bad, start off in 2nd. My bike with skinny me does this ok. Good to know in snow/rain by the way, but not so great uphill.
and, I still think it's easier if I double-clutch from first to second.

added: note to self-when gear shifts get sharp/clunky, consider changing oil!

[jeffgs]

Yes, I get caught with this too on one bike when it warms up. 1st canbe hard to get down too when not in motion and I feel pretty stupid rocking the bike backnforth when the light turns green and I wasn't getting ready on the yellow of the opposing traffic. Lights can be awfully long. I might want to pick my nose or something ...

We can try to adjust the clutch at handlebars a little bit when warmed up just in case that's it....but I still think there's a trick to it ...try revving your way to first while braking, even if you are not going to use 1st ...then , if you can lift to neutral while you wait, It should go back in the way it came out when you need it.

If it's really bad, start off in 2nd. My bike with skinny me does this ok. Good to know in snow/rain by the way, but not so great uphill.
and, I still think it's easier if I double-clutch from first to second.

Yes I actually will pick my nose at a light, it is not a maybe issue.

Ok I will try that for sure. I actually will do a light kick out of second to engage neutral vs going to first then up because I abhor the cash noise it makes. Like I said I want to make this thing last so I don't beat it up and treat it like some old cheap bike I bought.

I do appreciate the response; I know I shouldn't leave my bike in neutral at a light, but that wasn't an answer to my sticky shifter conundrum.

[John Park]

I didn't mean to preach; it's just that your query brought a rather vivid memory to mind. Just because you're stopped doesn't mean that the 'always have a plan B' rule ceases.

There's also a majority consensus on the forum that Rotella 15-40 is the way to go on all GS models. My experience has been that the six speed on the 400/450 is more cranky about oil than the 5 speeds on the bigger fours. I just brought an '82 400 back to health and when I got it [@ 30k miles] the shifting was pretty deplorable. First and neutral were stiff and hard to find and sixth was popping out half the time unless you held pressure on the lever while you let the clutch out. Lube was basic Yamalube - whatever that is.

What I've found is that Motul 10-40 synthetic [5100 or 7100] seems to fix it. There are three basic types of oil - petroleum, polyalphaolefins, and esters. As a lubricant, there is nothing inadequate about Rotella and it has much better properties than typical auto oils for GS use. However, esters have a polarity that attracts them to metal so they give better start up oiling. They also tend to clean up the corrosion and surface problems that plague old machinery. It's possible that the shift drum and detent surfaces are corroded or funky; mine must have been as it made the top of my foot sore. It does take about a thousand miles to really get the full effect of the difference in lubricant. It's pretty silky now; still a bit stiff into sixth, but they make that one tight as it's the freeway one. And the old guy that had mine may not have known that there was more than five!

There's a secondary effect of esters, in that petro oil will tend over time to shrink seals. The vast majority of the seals I've changed weren't worn out but were hardened and shrunken. This is especially problematic for seals that don't have a spring. The bike mentioned had the typical GS400 leaky tach drive, cam chain tensioner and shifter shaft seal plus some ooze from the clutch pushrod. Rather than change the seals I decided to just run the Motul and see what happened. The tensioner seal - I took it apart - was so shrunken that it didn't even fully contact the shaft. Most of the leakage subsided within a thousand miles and I'm now at about five thousand and it's down to an occasional tiny droplet from the tensioner that you have to look for. Same seals. Hard to believe, but that's what happened.

As I understand it, PAO synthetics tend to shrink rubber and esters swell it; petroleum is a slow shrink. Ideally, manufacturers of synthetics would balance the blend to produce a rubber neutral effect, but the esters are more expensive. Luckily, the seals on a GS engine are easily replaced, but I'd rather not bother. I doubt that Motul is the only oil that will do this; I think Optimol is very similar, but I'm not in the oil testing business.

This isn't just one or two bikes. I've had friends with [leaky] clunkers who refused to spend that kind of money on oil, but after I bought them the oil they came back and thanked me and paid for it and still use it. I know, it sounds like a Marvel and a Mystery, but it's just chemistry. I wasn't looking to find this but just stumbled into it.

If you go to a full synthetic, there's also the advantage that any oil burned in the combustion chamber will not leave ash. Rings tend to stay cleaner as well. I found this out when we were using Klotz synthetic two stroke oil and the stuff ran so clean we couldn't get a plug reading. Don't know what's in it; got it free from the sponsor we raced for. Probably 'too expensive' but maybe not if you're racing and have enough things to fix besides engines.

I'm not saying that an ester synthetic like Motul will make your bike last longer than Rotella. That's probably a wash. It's worth a try for the the tranny problem IMO.

[Steve]

The clutch is adjusted at the lever so i can fit a nickle in it and it is very positive with good feel.

This might be at least part of your problem. I think there is too much slack at the lever, you are not able to fully-disengage the clutch to get it into gear.

Think I left myself open on this one............

I pull as far right when stopped as I possibly can and watch the mirrors very closely, index finger on the clutch.

Unless you are riding in England or Australia, you might want to re-think that strategy.

Virtually all of the drivers here sit on the LEFT side of their vehicle. They look STRAIGHT AHEAD. You pull off to the right side of the lane, they will look right past you at the car ahead of you. They will stop just a few feet behind what they see.

.

[Gorminrider]

jeffgs, report back on what works or doesn't. Half the time, I forget to run "perfect experiments" and would like to hear of any good habits I can ape.

[Gorminrider]

@ steve, not to say what jeff-gs is thinking but for myself.-I can lane split, or goto shoulder being to the right. Plus, in my "Hornet-Boy" yellow jacket- well they can't not see me! (oh, yeah! When I'm in my wheelchair in court getting my 5 million , this jacket will be an extra good investment. )

[jeffgs]

This might be at least part of your problem. I think there is too much slack at the lever, you are not able to fully-disengage the clutch to get it into gear.



Unless you are riding in England or Australia, you might want to re-think that strategy.

Virtually all of the drivers here sit on the LEFT side of their vehicle. They look STRAIGHT AHEAD. You pull off to the right side of the lane, they will look right past you at the car ahead of you. They will stop just a few feet behind what they see.

.

Steve

My brake light is mounted to the left of the bike so as they approach it puts my light more to the center. I chose the right because I thought it would provide the widest path for easy escape. I may be making a mistake but I haven't ridden on the street in so long I can only be aware of what I can remember. Call me a nerd, I actually read the motorcycle safety manual 4 times before I took my test. Most of my riding is motocross or Hare and Hounds.

Now regarding the oil; I am going to be honest my cam seals are leaking now and I can't totally pin point when this started. When I bought the bike it had a fresh oil change, so I did not jump on an oil change immediately and rode it about 1,500 miles. I switched to Rotella and now I am noticing weeping. May be something to this?

[John Park]

Those cam seals - I'm assuming you mean the half moon plugs - tend to shrink and harden due to heat and considering how thick they are I don't think oil has much to do with it. Anything that would swell or shrink them would take a long time to do it. I guess you're supposed to replace them every decade or so, but I've never had to.

The only fix is to take off the valve cover - good time to check the valve clearances - and put some Permatex Form a Gasket on them when you reinstall. There's no oil pressure behind them so all they'll do is ooze until you get round to it. I avoid using silicone sealers, unless there's no other choice , and there almost always is.

The valve cover gasket is usually reusable - will stay with the cover - but it's nice to have a spare handy in case it decides to self-destruct. If you use some Permatex on the top of the half moons it will usually come apart again without tearing the gasket if you're careful. Or you can just replace the moons and gasket and start over as new.

[jeffgs]

Those cam seals - I'm assuming you mean the half moon plugs - tend to shrink and harden due to heat and considering how thick they are I don't think oil has much to do with it. Anything that would swell or shrink them would take a long time to do it. I guess you're supposed to replace them every decade or so, but I've never had to.

The only fix is to take off the valve cover - good time to check the valve clearances - and put some Permatex Form a Gasket on them when you reinstall. There's no oil pressure behind them so all they'll do is ooze until you get round to it. I avoid using silicone sealers, unless there's no other choice , and there almost always is.

The valve cover gasket is usually reusable - will stay with the cover - but it's nice to have a spare handy in case it decides to self-destruct. If you use some Permatex on the top of the half moons it will usually come apart again without tearing the gasket if you're careful. Or you can just replace the moons and gasket and start over as new.

I will actually do that today. I really appreciate it.