450L Tensioner & Valve lube question

[free99]

Hey everyone,
I've been zipping around on my 82 450L for the past couple of months, she's a great intro to motorcycles.

I recently took apart the cam chain tensioner per BikeCliff's tutorial to stop that persistent oil drip. However, since then I've noticed my valves seem to (over let's say, a month) slowly be getting louder, to where I've stopped riding since this past Thursday until I can figure out what's up. Just for precaution's sake.

I'll actually be digging into the bike later this week, just fishing for any hints or suggestions ahead of time:

1. The Clymer manual suggested I apply Moly Disulfide to the tappet shims after assembly, but besides that I didn't have any on hand I was concerned oil flow would wash it off, and eventually onto the clutch plates. Is that a mistake on my part? I'm using 10W50 oil, curious if the Moly would have made my valves a little quieter.
2. When I initially did my valve adjustment, the tolerances for two valves were out of spec to where my smallest feeler didn't fit. I adjusted everything and the bike's been great, though she can't get past 80 on flat ground for some reason. Any way I can check if the valves themselves are OK?
3. What could I have made a mistake on with the tensioner? I'll note that when I last took the valve cover off, there was etching from the chain (chain itself is in spec when measured with a caliper). Is this an issue? I've attached a pic.

IMG_20191008_181833.jpg

Thanks, I hope you've all had a good weekend.

[Big T]

3.The #1 guess would be that you didn't release the cam chain tensioner plunger after you installed it. Common mistake. Yes, those marks are a big problem, your cam chain is too loose

2. You bike should approach 100, unless you're a big galoot like me. Have you modified the air box or exhaust. You can do a leak down test to see if the valves are sealing.

1. The moly is only there to provide lubrication for the first few seconds after start up, and it washes off.

[free99]

Hey Big T. Thanks for the advice, I checked the following:

• double-checked valve clearance, everything is a little smaller than 0.10mm after new shims a few months back
• Rechecked the chain tensioner (CST), it was correctly assembled and installed. Checked after install by reaching in with a screwdriver and trying to wiggle the chain below the cam sprockets. The chain is taut with the CST installed, wobbly as f*&k without it installed.
• Cam Chain stretch is comfortably within factory tolerances

I'm fairly light, though tall. No airbox/exhaust mods, I'll try the leakdown next.

Something interesting I noticed: it kind of seems like the CST plunger is almost all the way extended. If I turn the handle on the CST counter-clockwise, there's a gentle grating, like you'd expect from a moving chain. But should the tensioner plunger be so far into the engine? Maybe the cam chain "rub pads" are worn out?

[OutbackPhil]

I'm doing my valve clearances at the moment (only 1 slightly out of spec the rest are good) and noticed the same marks on mine, but I have no idea how old the marks are. I think I read somewhere (possibly here?) that the cam chain tensioners on the 450s are crap anyway by their design, and that a GS500 or 550 one is a much better design and is interchangeable. I'd be curious to know if there's any truth to that, but I'll be having a good look at my chain and tensioner before I get out on the road again.

[John Park]

In my not so humble opinion, the GS500 tensioner is crap. It is like so many other ratchet type tensioners that disregard the expansion of the engine; it's a one way device. Lots of engines use them, but - like a fixed tensioner - they should really be set when hot and then, of course, they will be loose when the engine starts cold.

Some designs use a rather flexible tensioner blade which will bend enough when hot that the tension doesn't get too high, but inevitably the guides will wear more than if they used a more sophisticated tensioner system.

Treated properly, and given a fresh seal every decade or two, the early style tensioners work just fine and are easy on the cam bearings, chain and guides. The GS500 style works, but is the way it is for cost and simplicity sake. I'd far rather just have a fixed style and set it up hot.

I seem to recall that the V twin Suzuki Vulcan[???] used two ratchet style tensioners that caused some early failures. The one on the DRZ 400 can reset itself in a cold Canadian winter so tight that you can hear the whir over the rest of the motor when hot. Feel free to have any opinion you want, BUT, the motor will expand and contract, so there needs to be a strategy. One of the nice things about the GS is that the chain and guides last almost indefinitely which is more than can be said for, ahem, other brands. One of the many reasons why I'm here.

[OutbackPhil]

Yeah ok thanks for the info there John. I guess there's not much can be done with a basic ratchet style tensioner that simply clicks in when the chain starts to loosen up a bit. Not sure where I read that info then. I might check out what maintenance I can do on my 450 tensioner then (apart from checking if I can click it in any further!)
An ominous question...are the 450s a freespinning engine by any chance?

[John Park]

Yeah ok thanks for the info there John. I guess there's not much can be done with a basic ratchet style tensioner that simply clicks in when the chain starts to loosen up a bit. Not sure where I read that info then. I might check out what maintenance I can do on my 450 tensioner then (apart from checking if I can click it in any further!)
An ominous question...are the 450s a freespinning engine by any chance?

The term is non interference engine, and few motorcycle engines that I can think of are. Any 'hemi' head engine is prone to arguments among its valves and pistons if anything is out of synch. If you're turning it over by hand and meet resistance, stop and find out why. And if it won't turn by hand for two revolutions, don't hit the starter.

As far as the tensioner being extended a long way, I wouldn't be concerned. The mainspring isn't so much doing the work other than taking up any slack when the back side of the chain is between jobs. The ball ramp [knob] then holds that position when the tension flips as the cams go over center.

[Gorminrider]

New valve noises? well, there are several possibilities ez or nasty, but specific to tensioner, these are ideas:

hope you didn't skip a link on your cam chain when fiddling...

the actual plastic tensioner blade can come to bits in the worse case, but I haven't had this myself, though I see that the plastic on the blade can crack if the tensioner is abused..the metal backing of the blade is ok but can be bent back..pices would show up in the oil. Hopefully not lifted up into the valve-train..

If you turn the big knob on the tensioner, you can "reset" your tensioner without taking it apart but do this very carefully if you do it on a running bike-it's not required to do so on a running bike! you can just rotate the engine but still, just a little....loosening will do because-it's Especially important is to have the flat-side if the tensioner's plunger against the set screw and the setscrew itself is a fine adjustment so that the plunger can move, but not rotate...

[free99]

Ok, opening this up for hopefully the last time. I have a constant little oil drip out of the tensioner in spite of replacing all the seals, you can see it in the attached image. I suspect the big seal on the periphery of the 'knob' isn't cinched down tight enough. How do I keep the big nut from loosening, can I use loctite blue on the thread? What torque should I cinch the big nut down to, I don't want to shear the o-ring.

IMG_20200322_100306shrunk.jpg

[LAB3]

However, since then I've noticed my valves seem to (over let's say, a month) slowly be getting louder, to where I've stopped riding since this past Thursday until I can figure out what's up. Just for precaution's sake.

In one of your other threads you mentioned using one litre of oil in 1100 miles. With it being a litre low and your total capacity being 2.6 litres no wonder it's making noise! I'd be looking other places than the cam chain tensioner for a leak, I wish mine where that clean (never been resealed)

[Gorminrider]

(the picture you show) That locknut torque is about 6-7ft/lbs (72-84inch/lbs) You can use thread lock stuff on it...a medium strength(yes, it's the blue,I think) You CAN apparently go right up to 6-10ftlbs according to one manual I have but I wouldn't tell you to...a good oring should stop any leaks right away.

Usually, the side you show does not ever need taking apart and I have never seen a leak there in my 3 suzukis which is addmitedly limited experience. Still, Usually, a leak shows up on the shaft's lock side,(locknut there is also 6ft/lbs) but then really, the camchain tensioner is not needing anything except ocassional removal as a unit.

[free99]

In one of your other threads you mentioned using one litre of oil in 1100 miles. With it being a litre low and your total capacity being 2.6 litres no wonder it's making noise! I'd be looking other places than the cam chain tensioner for a leak, I wish mine where that clean (never been resealed)

Morning LAB3, if you take a look at https://vimeo.com/399751039 you can see how it's been acting ever since I cleaned it up & replaced seals. Is that normal? In spite of adding oil, the engine still makes a fair valve tick until the engine warms up, which, considering the seeming slack on the tensioner, would make sense as the chain tightens once the block warms up and expands right? Same as twisting the knob clockwise might?

(the picture you show) That locknut torque is about 6-7ft/lbs (72-84inch/lbs) You can use thread lock stuff on it...a medium strength(yes, it's the blue,I think) You CAN apparently go right up to 6-10ftlbs according to one manual I have but I wouldn't tell you to...a good oring should stop any leaks right away.

Usually, the side you show does not ever need taking apart and I have never seen a leak there in my 3 suzukis which is addmitedly limited experience. Still, Usually, a leak shows up on the shaft's lock side,(locknut there is also 6ft/lbs) but then really, the camchain tensioner is not needing anything except ocassional removal as a unit.

Gorminrider,
Thanks for that info. I'll look more closely at the locknut, though touching the large o-ring on tensioner reveals plenty of oil from there. I have a hunch that's the source, but again, I'll keep sniffing per your helpful tip.

Maybe I haven't reassembled the tensioner quite right..

[LAB3]

Morning LAB3, if you take a look at https://vimeo.com/399751039

That site requires an account to view it.

[Gorminrider]

That's funny. I could see it,Lab but here it is.IMG_20200322_100306shrunk.jpg

Maybe I haven't reassembled the tensioner quite right..

that I can't tell.But if you are taking that bit apart, I remember a member here did put it together once with the spring going the wrong way somehow so do pay attention to his lesson and be sure that it actually "injects" its shaft end with the spring tension .

[LAB3]

I've already seen that pic in one of the other two threads. Again, If you lost one litre of oil in 1100 miles your cases would be covered in oil on top and it would dripping down the sides. No, the seal isn't perfect but that's not the culprit for the oil loss. Start looking elsewhere.