Top End Noob

[Nessism]

Thanks for the info on the rust/carbon.

As to the damage on my head, it does not need rewelding. The retapping would be merely chasing the threads on the insert hole and installing (properly) a new insert. I have the kit for that already. Indeed, the insert that is stuck on the old plug and that threads into the cylinder now matches the insert in the Sav-A-Thread kit. So I think that repair could be pretty straight forward.

I may still spring for a "new" head in case I screw up the plug hole job.

Why not just install the new insert now? A few aluminum chips in the cylinder won't hurt anything, plus if you grease up the tap before chasing, there shouldn't be much if any chips at all.

[headsbikesmopars]

Mr. Cinders,
I believe that some material from the head has already fallen into the cylinder and scored / taken out the rings in #3. That expains the oil in #3. Yes pull it down but don't buy anything untill you KNOW. Freshen it up with new rings, don't forget to hone first,.. AFTER you check the tapper in the bores. Good idea to pick up another head it will cost as much to have the plug threads repaired by a pro. You will need to freshen the seats and lap the valves anyway even with the 'old' head so no additional real expense there. Have the deck cleaned up with a .005 clean-up mill. Good luck and keep us informed as to your progress..we are all still learning.

Terry

[Ranger]

Take it to a professional...this can be done with the engine together. Nothing with repairs is about luck it's good tools and the skills to use them. If you don't have the skills then it's all luck with poor odds.....If you have the skills go for it!



Graham not meaning to pick on you but those actually do work well, I prefer helicoil inserts but they are much harder to install (higher level of skills needed). If you had plugs melting onto an insert you've got other problems...more likely corrosion stuck them together use an antiseize compound on plug threads (SPARINGLY)

I have to agree, I've never had a problem using helicoil even with an LS7 engine. You shouldnt have a problem with metal at all and like was said using grease on the tap will catch most of it and using compressed air helps to blow most of it out.

[Graham]

Take it to a professional...this can be done with the engine together. Nothing with repairs is about luck it's good tools and the skills to use them. If you don't have the skills then it's all luck with poor odds.....If you have the skills go for it!



Graham not meaning to pick on you but those actually do work well, I prefer helicoil inserts but they are much harder to install (higher level of skills needed). If you had plugs melting onto an insert you've got other problems...more likely corrosion stuck them together use an antiseize compound on plug threads (SPARINGLY)

Sparkplugs require some cooling; inserts and Helicoils do not transfer heat well to an aluminum air-cooled (high temp) head. They are fine for other bolts and studs but not sparkplugs. Inserts can be used on liquid cooled heads with little trouble. You will never buy a remanufactured head with a insert or Helicoil in any sparkplug hole. The professional way would be to weld the sparkplug hole up and re-drill then tap.

If the head and the repair is short term than do it. But I doubt you will get 50000 miles out of an air-cooled head with a sparkplug insert. If your going to do a top end then why waist money on a good valve job for a jacked-up head that you could get used for the price of the rings and/or gaskets? Why be cheap and do it half a$$. But you get what you pay for.

BTW, I am a professional motorcycle mechanic and shabby work does not leave my shop like using inserts on sparkplugs.

[MisterCinders]

I am now looking into obtaining a replacement head.

Will wait to see what's inside before making other purchases. Might also price out what it would cost to have the valves and pistons done if I handed the top end over to a pro.

[Nessism]

An insert may make the plug run a little hotter but who cares? Just as long as the plug doesn't foul out it's not factor. Threaded inserts in cylinder heads are very common and I've never heard about anyone having troubles, other than sometimes the inserts pull out.

As far as chips falling onto the cylinder causing troubles, this is unlikely unless a whole lot of chips fall in. Grease the tap and only a minimal number of chips will make their way inside.

All this said, MisterCinders needs to decide how far he wants to go with fixing the engine. Simply installing the insert back in place might be all that's necessary, or maybe the cylinder/rings are trashed. Hard to say for sure. Personally, I'd try the easy route first and see how it turns out. You can always pull the head if necessary at a later time.

[Graham]

An insert may make the plug run a little hotter but who cares? Just as long as the plug doesn't foul out it's not factor. Threaded inserts in cylinder heads are very common and I've never heard about anyone having troubles, other than sometimes the inserts pull out.

As far as chips falling onto the cylinder causing troubles, this is unlikely unless a whole lot of chips fall in. Grease the tap and only a minimal number of chips will make their way inside.

All this said, MisterCinders needs to decide how far he wants to go with fixing the engine. Simply installing the insert back in place might be all that's necessary, or maybe the cylinder/rings are trashed. Hard to say for sure. Personally, I'd try the easy route first and see how it turns out. You can always pull the head if necessary at a later time.

Too hot of a plug can cause a hole in the piston.
If you do it right the first time you won’t have to do it again later.

[MisterCinders]

With a break in the bitter cold, I managed to pull the cylinder head off so I replace or repair.

I cannot get the cylinder to lift off for the life of me. What tricks or techniques will help pull that bad boy off?

[Nessism]

Too hot of a plug can cause a hole in the piston.
If you do it right the first time you won’t have to do it again later.

Honestly now, there are literally millions of aluminum cylinder heads with an insert or two installed and they don't hole pistons just like that. Go one range cooler on that plug if you can't sleep otherwise.

[Graham]

With a break in the bitter cold, I managed to pull the cylinder head off so I replace or repair.

I cannot get the cylinder to lift off for the life of me. What tricks or techniques will help pull that bad boy off?

Just removed my top-end and trick is a little tapping and prying. Be sure all the bolts are out and the head studs are clean.

Honestly now, there are literally millions of aluminum cylinder heads with an insert or two installed and they don't hole pistons just like that. Go one range cooler on that plug if you can't sleep otherwise.

I’ve seen 3 plug inserts installed (all had problems) in 27 years of motorcycle repair. Where did the 1000000 come from?

[haztoys]

45 years old ...Mechanic sents age 8 working with a famliy member resorting old aircraft ...Never had any other job then making motors run ... Did a time fixing bikes and worked for US Suzuki too.. Raced all over the world ... At a point in my life I can and no get a crazy $um of money to do a motor or restore/mod a toy ... I turn down more work then I do ...
I'm at a point of the last toy is almost done ... And being courted for my next job/toy that the time table is in years to get done ..I fix thing not replace parts ...


That said

A Helicoil is fine ... As in heat tranfer ... I'm sure in my years of playing with motors who knows how may I've installed .. Very few have problem ...

Tip on installing a helicoil in a plug hole ... Say its #1 your helicoiling ...Get some help ...One guy pumps the ex pipe with air ..As you turn the motor over as #1 ex valve opens up the air will blow "out" the spark plug hole ... Grease the helicoil tap too .. As you retap the hole the chips will blow "out" the hole and not fall into the motor ...If its a two piper on the ex with a cross over you need to plug the other pipe...Leave the other spark plugs in the other cylinders to keep them air tight ..

Install the helicoil and run it ... Find a nother head and at some point when you want to mod your bike install the new head ..

Sorry Graham ...

David

Hazardous Toys inc

[Graham]

45 years old ...Mechanic sents age 8 working with a famliy member resorting old aircraft ...Never had any other job then making motors run ... Did a time fixing bikes and worked for US Suzuki too.. Raced all over the world ... At a point in my life I can and no get a crazy $um of money to do a motor or restore/mod a toy ... I turn down more work then I do ...
I'm at a point of the last toy is almost done ... And being courted for my next job/toy that the time table is in years to get done ..I fix thing not replace parts ...


That said

A Helicoil is fine ... As in heat tranfer ... I'm sure in my years of playing with motors who knows how may I've installed .. Very few have problem ...

Tip on installing a helicoil in a plug hole ... Say its #1 your helicoiling ...Get some help ...One guy pumps the ex pipe with air ..As you turn the motor over as #1 ex valve opens up the air will blow "out" the spark plug hole ... Grease the helicoil tap too .. As you retap the hole the chips will blow "out" the hole and not fall into the motor ...If its a two piper on the ex with a cross over you need to plug the other pipe...Leave the other spark plugs in the other cylinders to keep them air tight ..

Install the helicoil and run it ... Find a nother head and at some point when you want to mod your bike install the new head ..

Sorry Graham ...

David

Hazardous Toys inc

You are preferential mechanic since the age of 8? Wasn’t there child labor laws? So what, I was mechanical back in the 70s too. It’s not like I’d put that on a résumé.

Tip on installing a Helicoil in a sparkplug hole. Do it and put a 100 miles on it and let us know how it worked. Then we’ll know who’s right.


Crazy Carl's

http://www.panhandlepowersports.com/

[Nessism]

Timeserts are the preferred method to repair Ford Triton V8 engines which are famous for damaged spark plug threads. Ford Motor Company would not specify this method if there was risk of holed pistons.

Timeserts are superior to helicoils for this kind of application since they don't pull back out when the plugs are removed at a later time. Helicoil brand sells solid inserts in addition to the traditional coiled wire inserts, which while not as nice as the Timeserts, they are better than regular helicoils for spark plug thread repair in my opinion.

Another things that's no major worry is the chips that fall into the cylinder. Blow them out, suck them out with a vacuum cleaner, grease the tap, etc. All valid methods to replace the spark plug threads without pulling the head.

Find something else to worry about.

[TSCC]

Known Issues:

A PO botched a spark-plug expansion on the No. 3 cylinder such that the expander is forever grafted to the plug instead of the cylinder head. Even if the bike were running flawlessly, I need to pull the head to rehab that expansion. I have the Sav-A-Thread kit for this, but cannot do the work with the head in place, or metal bits will fall into the engine.

Of course, the engine does not run flawlessly. The No. 3 plug shows oil-fouling, so something is up in there. It also idles a bit rough, even after much trial-and-error in jetting and carb cleaning, and I think that No. 3 cylinder is a culprit. I could not get a compression test because the tool will not thread into the badly expanded plug hole. It almost fits, but not quite.

Opinions and Preferences, although these work well for this fellow. And the pics are nice.

< TimeSert > <------------- Click

[haztoys]

You are preferential mechanic since the age of 8? Wasn’t there child labor laws? So what, I was mechanical back in the 70s too. It’s not like I’d put that on a résumé.

Tip on installing a Helicoil in a sparkplug hole. Do it and put a 100 miles on it and let us know how it worked. Then we’ll know who’s right.

LOL...Oh Graham your ego is killing me ...Your rant of the "27 years" as a motorcycle mechanic was ..What ...???

Child labor laws...... Had an Uncle that was one of "Watson Wizzer's" and would go help him after school ..Lots of kids help in famliy shops..

Resume....With my skills and back ground the last resume I filled out was 20 years ago ... I dont have to at this point trust me ...And good thing I started at 8 it was the best thing I ever did..

Graham please dont get up set because people dont see it your way ...
And I'm sorry you have had bad luck with Helicoil's ...

And at times helicoils and Timeserts do not work out right ...At times ..
Lifes a crap shoot...

Have a good day