honing

[Graham]

I don't understand the rational is for this comment. A bottle brush hone is widely accepted as the proper tool to hone a worn, but still within the serviceable limits, cylinder.

Sure, a bottle brush is not as sano as a fresh bored/honed cylinder, but its better than trying to cram a straight hone down a used cylinder since it can skip over low spots, or the hone will have to remove a bunch of metal to make the cylinder round again.

If there is low spots then it needs bored.

[nitro3custom]

Ok putting an end to this thread, it's null and void as I will be reboring for a wiseco 1085 kit. The piston skirts we're worn more than expected. Thanks for the input.

[Big Jay]

If there is low spots then it needs bored.

There you go!!!

[Nessism]

No disrespect to Jay but I call BS on assertions that bottle brush hones are inappropriate. Cylinders wear with usage, that's why Suzuki lists a Service Limit for wear in the service manual. Further, cylinder wear does not occur uniformly down the cylinder, nor does it occur consistently around the cylinder front to back. Bottom line is there will be various low and high spots within a used cylinder, but the cylinder may still be within the service limit. Breaking the glaze in cylinders like this is critical since the rings will be somewhat challenged to seal in the first place considering the cylinder is not perfect.

Straight hones have more difficulty conforming to the small irregularities of worn cylinders than a ball hone. I suspect that's why ball hones were invented in the first place. Sure, you could hammer away at the cylinder with a straight hone and eventually you will cover all the surface area (low spots included), but you will also take out more metal than a ball hone would. I suspect this would be doubly the case if using a professional Sunnen hone machine which is very ridged with large flat stones. Hones like this will make the cylinder rounder and with less taper than a ball hone, but it will also increase the piston to wall clearance - possibly throwing it out of spec.

It's easy to say "if there is low spots it needs bored" but not everyone wants to spend the money on a bore job and new pistons ($500?) if their old parts are within the service limit. It's sort of like lapping the valves into the old seats; sure a valve job is the "proper" fix, but again, not every one has $160 laying around to pay for this.

Do what you want but in my view a ball hone is the proper tool for the job.

[tkent02]

Ed, if you sold expensive engine work for a living you would disagree too.
Bottle hones are great, I have used them to get good ring seals on cylinders worn WAY past the limits, on cars and bikes both. The pistons were very loose in the bore. No blowby, no smoke, good compression. I don't know how long they lasted, certainly not as long as a proper rebore and new pistons would have, but they worked for many thousands of miles I had the cars and bikes. You couldn't do this crap on a customer's engine, but it worked in a pinch.

[blowerbike]

most people on this site are to cheap to buy rings let a lone have a bore job with new pistons...
a ball hone works fine even when pushing 40psi of boost with alky.
this is on a used kit that is still within specs.
the cheap blade hones are crap.
this thread is just confusing a lot of people in my opinion.

[gssuzukixxx]

No disrespect to Jay but I call BS on assertions that bottle brush hones are inappropriate. Cylinders wear with usage, that's why Suzuki lists a Service Limit for wear in the service manual. Further, cylinder wear does not occur uniformly down the cylinder, nor does it occur consistently around the cylinder front to back. Bottom line is there will be various low and high spots within a used cylinder, but the cylinder may still be within the service limit. Breaking the glaze in cylinders like this is critical since the rings will be somewhat challenged to seal in the first place considering the cylinder is not perfect.

Straight hones have more difficulty conforming to the small irregularities of worn cylinders than a ball hone. I suspect that's why ball hones were invented in the first place. Sure, you could hammer away at the cylinder with a straight hone and eventually you will cover all the surface area (low spots included), but you will also take out more metal than a ball hone would. I suspect this would be doubly the case if using a professional Sunnen hone machine which is very ridged with large flat stones. Hones like this will make the cylinder rounder and with less taper than a ball hone, but it will also increase the piston to wall clearance - possibly throwing it out of spec.

It's easy to say "if there is low spots it needs bored" but not everyone wants to spend the money on a bore job and new pistons ($500?) if their old parts are within the service limit. It's sort of like lapping the valves into the old seats; sure a valve job is the "proper" fix, but again, not every one has $160 laying around to pay for this.

Do what you want but in my view a ball hone is the proper tool for the job.

I agree. Most of us are trying to turn a $500 motorcycle into something that runs good but will only ever be worth more $1500.

Even a set of rings and gasket set costs me $330 up here in Cunuckistan.

Brian

[Big Jay]

I see very few used cylinders that don't clean up with just a few strokes on the hone. If it is out of round, then you feel that immediatly. Then if you still want to run it, then I guess a bottle brush hone is the choice.

Without going into how we finish bores, I can say we don't remove much at all when glaze breaking.

As a top shop, we don't send blocks out to customers that wouldn't clean up with just a few strokes. If you are trying to salvage badly worn cylinders in your garage, that is a different story.

As for why they were invented, it is for applications where there is no real hone available, such at the racetrack. You will see NHRA guys using them at the track trying to get a sleeve to go one more round.

On an interesting note, we are a warehouse distributor for the people who make the ball hones. We sell the small ones for tight valve guides. ( altho we hone guides with a Sunnen hone.)

[Nessism]

As a top shop, we don't send blocks out to customers that wouldn't clean up with just a few strokes. If you are trying to salvage badly worn cylinders in your garage, that is a different story.

Jay, this forum is full of garage mechanics, and some pretty good ones at that. Lots of us rebuild engines at home where all that's needed is to break the glaze and install new rings. Most of the time these engines have blown a head gasket or similar as opposed to worn out cylinders in need of a bore job. We aren't hammering the cylinder with hundreds of hone strokes so that a ball hone will cause the cylinder to go out of round or anything; just enough to get a nice cross-hatch pattern and then we call it done. Given this type of need there is nothing wrong with a ball hone. They are superior to similarly prices 3 blade flat hones and have proven their value countless times.

I don't think anyone here would discourage someone from taking there cylinder to someone like you for a hone job, but I also don't think there is anything wrong with doing it at home either.

[Graham]

I do too many top ends to use a bunch of different size ball hones. One straight hone can do all the top ends no matter the size bore. Both hones work well on glazed cylinders. Now if someone wants to use a ball hone on a project bike then that’s fine but ball hones aren’t productive enough to use in a professional shop.

[tkent02]

I do too many top ends to use a bunch of different size ball hones. One straight hone can do all the top ends no matter the size bore. Both hones work well on glazed cylinders. Now if someone wants to use a ball hone on a project bike then that’s fine but ball hones aren’t productive enough to use in a professional shop.

Those of us running professional shops probably wouldn't be asking advise about hones on this forum. For the rest of us they work fine.

[Graham]

Those of us running professional shops probably wouldn't be asking advise about hones on this forum. For the rest of us they work fine.

Didn’t think someone from a professional shop was.

[Nessism]

Local shop by me used a ball hone on my first GS1000 cylinder. They had a box full of them. Didn't feel like running back for the second cylinder so bought my own hone from http://enginehones.com/

[Graham]

Local shop by me use a ball hone on my first GS1000 cylinder. They had a box full of them. Didn't feel like running back for the second cylinder so bought my own hone from http://enginehones.com/

I have seen other shops use them too. There is just no need in having a box of ball hones when you can use one straight hone and it works just as well.

[blowerbike]

sounds like a damn sausage-fest in here