Some clarification please...starter clutch.

[tom203]

Well I found out this morning that the shaft holding the idler gear is not attached to the case as I had thought so I tried it with the cover off. What happens is the crankshaft gear spins clockwise and doesn't at any point lockup. So does this tell me the clutch mechanism is pooched? In normal operation does the gear spin clockwise to a point then lock up to turn the crank? is that how it operates?


cheers all,
spyug

Facing left side of bike with stator cover off, starter motor turns counterclockwise,which turns idler gear clockwise,which then turns rotor gear counterclockwise ( if starter clutch works). Make sure your starter motor is going right way- it's possible starter was rebuilt with brushes biased in wrong direction.

[spyug]

Facing left side of bike with stator cover off, starter motor turns counterclockwise,which turns idler gear clockwise,which then turns rotor gear counterclockwise ( if starter clutch works). Make sure your starter motor is going right way- it's possible starter was rebuilt with brushes biased in wrong direction.

Yikes I never thought of something like that . There is a vid of the bike running last fall and it seemed fine but the more I think of it the starter turns clockwise. Could it be something like that I wonder?

Man that's making me think. That would make some degree of sense wouldn't it if the crank gear is turning counterclockwise it is going to engage.

Is there anyway a starter can start running in reverse of how its supposed to if it was not rebuilt?

Man my head is spinning now. Thanks for making me look forward to a sleepless night.

Cheers,
spyug

[Mekanix]

Quickest and easyest test you could do is put it in top gear and turn the tire backwards. It will turn the starter if the clutch is good and you'll hear it.

If your wondering about the starter going in the wrong direction, could it be that your battery is in backwards or its new and the + and - are on the opposite side of the old battery? Just another thought.

Engine and starter rotate in the same direction.
No i don't believe there is any way for a starter to simply reverse direction unless the brush plate inside spun somehow but it would be noticeable and intermittent.

Another quick test of the clutch would be to remove the pin on the idler gear and take the gear out. Then try to move the clutch gear on the crankshaft.

It should spin clockwise and lock counterclockwise.

[spyug]

Another quick test of the clutch would be to remove the pin on the idler gear and take the gear out. Then try to move the clutch gear on the crankshaft.

It should spin clockwise and lock counterclockwise.

That is exactly what it does do but when the starter motor is engaged it spins it continually clockwise. Should it not at some point lock and turn the crank?

This is what confuses the hell out of me. it seems that everything is working as it should but yet it does not engage the crankshaft.

I'm more confused than ever.

Spyug

[spyug]

Thanks for that reference. I don't have access to an oxy rig so my mapp gas will need to do. I can get cherry with that I know. So if I can get in the right mental state today, I may try it again tonight and with the rattle gun rather than the torque bar.

At this point, I need to see the state of that clutch mechanism to understand how it does what its supposed to do. For some reason, despite the information provided, I can't see it in my minds eye.

Keep your fingers crossed for me.

Cheers all,
Spyug

[Mekanix]

Um...I think I see where we are getting confused.

You say the starter turns clockwise ?

If so, It shouldn't!



!! and you definitely have the polarity on the battery backwards if the starter rotates clockwise!! "assuming the starter wasn't assembled wrong"



The engine spins counterclockwise and the starter should spin the same way. The gear in the middle should spin the other way.


What happened when you put it in fifth gear and and turned the tire backwards (with everything put together)


The clutch doesn't slip at all before it engages. Its either free spinning clockwise or 100% lock counterclockwise



I'm hoping your not trying to get that bolt off for nothing.



here is the guts inside the starter clutch

http://www.cmsnl.com/suzuki-gs550-1982-mz_model13484/partslist/FIG-09.html

BY the way, If the battery is in backwards, Everything would work anyways. lights, horn, starter... Except the starter would turn backwards and the ignitor wouldn't work.

[Mekanix]

On the left side of the bike. From your point of view


Like this


From this point of view:

:crankshaft, camshaft, starter, front sprocket, and oil pump all turn counterclockwise(left) when the engine is running.

: idler gear, clutch, rotates clockwise

[spyug]

Thanks for that info but now it gets really confusing.

I checked again tonight, the battery shows correct polarity and is wired correctly (i.e. positive to the solenoid). The starter does indeed turn clockwise, the idler gear turns counter clockwise and the ring gear turns freely clockwise.

I was really hoping that the battery was to blame and I'd get out of having to pull it all apart.

So now if your information is correct ( I really don't doubt you as it does make sense)then I have to wonder how the starter is turning the wrong way. It is bizarre to say the least.

I suspect I won't get any sleep again tonight. Dang I've got to find a less stressful hobby.

Cheers all.

[Mekanix]

Ok that's weird !

If the starter was assembled wrong that could happen,

I have a spare here, I'll pull it appart and see if i can make it spin clockwise.

brb


Are you getting positive voltage on the starter ?

I don't know if its possible but can a battery be recharged with opposite polarity ?

[Mekanix]

I think i found something !!!


I just pulled a starter apart and if you take the plate inside and rotate it 180 and reassemble the starter, It looks good and works fine but its reversed !!!


Put positive on the screw and negative on the case and it turned backwards.

While it was running I took the screws out and rotated the cap on the end quickly and it changed directions.

Electrically it makes sense.



There are several indented bumps on the inside of the starter's case near the top where the brushes are.

One of them is a little longer than the others and it matches up with a notch on the brush plate.

[Nessism]

Thanks for that info but now it gets really confusing.

I checked again tonight, the battery shows correct polarity and is wired correctly (i.e. positive to the solenoid). The starter does indeed turn clockwise, the idler gear turns counter clockwise and the ring gear turns freely clockwise.

I was really hoping that the battery was to blame and I'd get out of having to pull it all apart.

So now if your information is correct ( I really don't doubt you as it does make sense)then I have to wonder how the starter is turning the wrong way. It is bizarre to say the least.

I suspect I won't get any sleep again tonight. Dang I've got to find a less stressful hobby.

Cheers all.

Most GS starters turn CCW when looking at it from the LH side of the bike. Starter CCW, idler CW, engine CCW. Maybe someone changed the starter to a different model?

[spyug]

Thanks guys. I don't know if the starter was changed or rebuilt or not. looking at the top of the engine and the cover, it doesn't look like anything has moved since the factory. I'll try and check with the PO and see what he can tell me.

I guess my next move is to remove the starter and have a closer look at it.

On thinking about it further, I have a spare 750 engine and I wonder if the starters are the same. Perhaps I can just swap them out at least to test things.

This is turning out to be one of the weirder things I've ever run across in this hobby.

I'll let you know what I find out later.

Thanks again for hanging in with me.

Cheers,
Spyug

[posplayr]

Yep. It's not the polarity of the leads that reverses it, but the polarity of the brushes. 180 deg rotation of the brush plate is how most starters are reversed.

It's a common problem with starter motors in general, though I didn't know how likely it was on the GS starters.

I was going to post that info, but you beat me to it!

And, ABSOLUTELY, it will prevent the motor from starting!

- JC

I actually took a GS1100E starter out of a bike and reversed the power and it still turned turned the same direction

[Mekanix]

Glad i could help and I believe the starters are the same for a 400 up to 1000.