Cylinder Head Gasket question

[Guest]

I'm in the process of rebuilding my 1983 GS650L engine. On the cylinder head gasket there are 4 orange oring type gaskets on the 4 outer stud bolts. With the gasket set I got these 4 orings are not present in the kit. The picture I took when I disassembled the engine these orings don't appear to be present. Question is do I need to have them there? The picture is from my 1981 rebuild.

[mike_of_bbg]

Can you post a pic of the current gasket? Some revisions of the head gasket have crush washers built-in. My first head gasket had the orange crush washers; the newer one had them built-in and they were black.

[Dave_17954]

1983 cylinder head

Here is a pic of the old one I took out of the 1983. Hard to tell if there there or not. the white arrow is pointing to one of the 4 stud bolts in question. This is the original gasket that was in the engine. The motor only has about 10,000 miles on it. I don't see where the small oring type gaskets are listed in either the service manual or on any parts lookup pages. None came with the kit I ordered direct from Athena. The set I used on my 1981 rebuild also came from Athena. According to the Suzuki shop the factory gasket sets are no longer available so they recommended Athena which they use and I have used also. I wouldn't think the motors are different from year to year but mine is 2 years newer. The new gasket I got in the kit looks just like the top one in the 1rst photo but has no orange gaskets and none in the kit. The orange orings were separate from the gasket and were slid over the stud and then looked like the top photo once it was all put on. Can post more photos later.

[Nessism]

None came with the kit I ordered direct from Athena. The set I used on my 1981 rebuild also came from Athena. According to the Suzuki shop the factory gasket sets are no longer available so they recommended Athena which they use and I have used also. I wouldn't think the motors are different from year to year but mine is 2 years newer.

The OEM head gasket is still available.

Part# 11140-34811
supersedes: 11141-34203 11141-34204 11140-34810
Desc GASKET SET,CYL

The other gaskets are available too, you just need to order them separately (not part of a gasket kit).

Athena brand gaskets suck. Lots of members here, including me, have had very poor results with them. Some of their head gaskets are half way decent, but the other gaskets, including the green base gaskets, are total garbage.

[Dave_17954]

Yes, the 3 I'm concerned with most are the base gasket, cylinder head gasket and the valve cover gasket. I'll probably wind ordering the 3 main gaskets from Suzuki to be on the safe side. Off brands do make me nervous.......I've only torn down just the top end as the PO didn't do the required torque maintenance and the base gasket started weeping and I couldn't stop it. All the other gaskets are still in place. I just ordered the complete set to have some spares.

[mike_of_bbg]

Yes, to Ed you listen (Yoda voice)...

At the very least get an OEM base gasket. They're cheap. The Athena ones are soft and squishy, releasing their clamping force which can cause the head gasket to leak. You think it's a head gasket problem but it's not, that's just where it manifests itself.

There appear to be 3 different types of head gaskets, and quite frankly I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell you what is available for your bike or by part #. The 3 types are:

1) Fiber head gaskets with separate crush washers (and cam chain tunnel O-ring). This is what the original design was, and also what I got in an Athena gasket set I bought about 4 years ago (since replaced because it leaked).

2) Fiber head gaskets with integrated crush washers (cam chain tunnel O-ring is still separate). I replaced my Athena head gasket with an OEM head gasket of this type bought on eBay and an OEM base gasket. This is for a GS1000 head gasket, but if you look in the corner holes you can see the integrated crush washers:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1978-1979-Suzuki-GS-1000-Cylinder-Head-Gasket-NOS-New-Old-Stock-/170886182947?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3AGS&hash=item27c99c3823&vxp=mtr

3) Multi-Layer Steel (MLS) gaskets which do not require crush washers or cam chain tunnel O-rings.

I've read some reports of Athena gasket kits with MLS head gaskets. So if you didn't get either the corner crush washers or the cam chain tunnel O-ring that may be what you received.

If you value your time, choosing OEM gaskets is probably the way to go though. My Athena valve cover gasket (and other side gaskets) was OK IIRC. If you're going to take a risk on one, at least that one doesn't require you to pull the head or cylinders.

[Dave_17954]

Nessism....that is a good part number but I have to buy a whole set and not just an individual gasket. I did order the base gasket and the valve cover gasket from Suzuki oem but am still lacking the cylinder gasket other than my Athena one. It is a msl gasket and was wondering where I got the orange orings/crush washer I used on my 81 rebuild?

[Nessism]

Nessism....that is a good part number but I have to buy a whole set and not just an individual gasket. I did order the base gasket and the valve cover gasket from Suzuki oem but am still lacking the cylinder gasket other than my Athena one. It is a msl gasket and was wondering where I got the orange orings/crush washer I used on my 81 rebuild?

Dave,

As mentioned by mike in this thread, there are various types of head gaskets, some of which don't use those O-rings. I believe the MLS type don't.

As for buying gaskets, there are a multitude of different places to order OEM Suzuki parts on-line. Boulevard Suzuki is one of the forum favourites. You can see the entire parts fishe from their website, and order each and every gasket you need for your bike. It's a bit of a pain looking up all the gaskets individually, but it's way less bothersome than having a crappy Athena gasket fail in use.

[Dave_17954]

I checked the Boulevard Suzuki web site and it list it the same as any other Suzuki dealer. Its sold in a set for around $143. Kind of pricey just for 1 gasket.

[BassCliff]

Hi,

Cometic gaskets are another option. Some people like them, some don't. But looking at their site, I don't see anything listed for the GS650. Still, it might be worth a call. I just thought I'd mention it.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

[tfb]

When I ordered an OEM head gasket for my last GS1000S, the Suzuki boys got me an MLS (multi-layer steel) gasket. I queried them whether this was the part Suzuki now supplied. They assured me it was.
So I fitted it, nice and clean surfaces, correct torque, etc. It leaked oil. So I whipped the head off again, and put a thin smudge of silicone around the oilway holes, and inbetween each layer of steel gasket material around the holes, but nowhere else. Never had a problem after that.
I have done this with all my head gaskets since, whether they are MLS or not, and whether they have 'built-in' O-rings or not. They all get the *thin* smudge of silicone, and they have all been oil tight.
As far as base gaskets go, a few years back the base gasket on my Katana ruptured/ cracked at the oil-way hole, and was pumping out a decent trickle of oil as I rode home. It was an OEM gasket, and it failed. Not wanting to risk this again, I invested in a copper sheet base gasket from eBay, and installed it with <drumroll!> the *thin* smudge of silicone around the oilway holes. Haven't had a problem since.
And while I'm waxing lyrical about all things gasket, I must say that for years the cam cover gasket on the Katana gave me grief; it was always oozing oil somewhere or other. Until one day, in desperation, I bought a low-torque torque wrench, and did each bolt up to the specified torque with a new gasket installed (it is an aftermarket gasket). It honestly has not leaked a drop of oil since! So I'm a bigger fan of torque wrenches than ever before.

[Nessism]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the Athena head gasket may be okay. It's a gamble though. I know for a fact that the green base gaskets suck though. The material isn't strong enough and extrudes out of place under the head clamp load.

Regardless of what gaskets you choose, it's critical to use a torque wrench on the head nuts, and also follow up with subsequent torque checks through the engines break in period. The torque often falls off after the first few heat cycles and retorquing to spec is critical to a lasting seal. With the Athena gaskets, it was during these follow up checks where the base gasket failed. The head nuts got really loose after the gasket failed, and each time I retorqued, the gasket squirmed further out of place.

[mike_of_bbg]

Dave,

It appears that $143 is the list price. I see Boulevard's price as ~$108, and gssuzuki.com is about $1.50 less. Those prices are, of course, before shipping. Sometimes you can catch Boulevard or G&S having specials for free shipping, though neither seems to be happening right now.

I'd still like to see some close-up pictures of your new gasket. I think the Athena head gasket might be worth a shot.

I checked the Boulevard Suzuki web site and it list it the same as any other Suzuki dealer. Its sold in a set for around $143. Kind of pricey just for 1 gasket.

[tfb]

Nessism, thanks for posting that photo of that ugly failed Athena gasket. Selling stuff like that is criminal... did you ask for a refund, or did you just figure you'd never buy another one of those wretched things again?

[Dave_17954]

I actually have never had a problem with my Athena gaskets leaking on the rebuild I did on my 81 gs650. Yes torque specs are very important for sure which is why when I bought my newest bike the PO had failed to retorque his head bolts and hence the base gasket gasket started to leak. Even tho I retorqued them to proper specs the base gaskets was already wet with oil and continued to weep oil. Which is why I'm rebuilding the top end now (basically gaskets only as the motor only has 10,000 miles on it). I put everything to spec after I bought and it only had 7,000 original miles on it. Heres a pic of the kit with the gasket in question. The one I used I put the orings in the corner stud holes as shown in my other pix and I've been reading with these MLS gaskets its not necessary. Don't want to have to do the same job twice if it leaks. The gasket is thicker than Suzuki oem at least this one. The base gasket and valve cover gasket I'm using is Suzuki oem. This is the only one that concerns me.


Here by the way is my newest ride after my rebuild last spring.