Valve cover stuck?

[Seaking]

STOP!!
Time to start using some "units of measurement" here. Yes, the book calls for "0.03 to 0.08", but it's not miles, it's millimeters. And your smallest feeler blade is 0.0017 ... whats??? I use INCH feelers and the smallest one is 0.0015", I have never seen one at 0.0017.

It is also important to note that if you interchange inches and millimeters, there is another source of confusion. The metric specs are 0.03 to 0.08mm, the inch specs are (approximately) 0.001" to 0.003". Note that both sets of specs have a "3" in them, but one is MAX, the other in MIN, and there is a different number of zeroes ahead of the 3. Again, please state your units of measurement.

NO!!! You do not "rotate until the lobes are farthest away from the shim". That is NOT what is directed in the manuals. There is a specific position for the cam where two adjacent lobes are both at angle away from their valves. Without moving anything measure BOTH of those valves. Set up the next pair, measure them, repeat until done.
.

I knew there was something wrong.. and you caught it, thanks.. In the photo linked earlier, it shows the feeler gauge blade in use.. the 0.0015 INCH measurement is 0.038 MM which is the smallest blade in my stack.. time to go get a new one.. with thinner blades.. OK, so far the clearances might not be all that bad.. but won't know until I can get thinner blades feeler gauge..

As for the lobe positioning, I've re-read the manual section on this and its clearer now how to proceed. Thanks for the clarification, I was given duff information on this part..

Thanks again for spotting the fault in my process, it makes it easier to correct and move on now.

Cheers

[Seaking]

I was going to mention that, but was concerned about bending the cover if you had to pry like that. I don't know you at all, but some guys can't be trusted with a prybar.

Don't worry, I'm not as ham fisted as I make it sound.. I'm rather gentle with machinery.. that's why I was so surprised at how little effort it took to lift the cover with a gentle pry under the chrome covers.. and I certainly didn't want to get bashing on the valve cover with the rubber mallet all day.. that cover is rather fragile looking..

[850 Combat]

The manuals for my bikes show the cam lobes lined up with the valve cover gasket, exhausts forward, and intakes rearward. I have no idea why it isn't just straight up. That is how most of my stuff is.

[2BRacing]

I knew there was something wrong.. and you caught it, thanks.. In the photo linked earlier, it shows the feeler gauge blade in use.. the 0.0015 INCH measurement is 0.038 MM which is the smallest blade in my stack.. time to go get a new one.. with thinner blades.. OK, so far the clearances might not be all that bad.. but won't know until I can get thinner blades feeler gauge..

As for the lobe positioning, I've re-read the manual section on this and its clearer now how to proceed. Thanks for the clarification, I was given duff information on this part..

Thanks again for spotting the fault in my process, it makes it easier to correct and move on now.

Cheers

In my humble opinion your clearances are probably all too small. You used a 0.0015 inch (0.038 mm) gauge and said earlier it would not go in any of the valves. As an approximation, this is 0.04 mm. Getting smaller feeler gauges is not going to make any significant difference, as the one you have (0.0015 inch / 0.038 mm) is for all practical purposes equivalent to the lower end of the clearance specification.

The upper clearance limit is 0.08 mm, so you are at (or below) the bottom limit. Due to the fact that clearances get smaller over time, it is a good idea to start out with your clearances at (or even slightly above, like 0.10 mm) the upper limit of 0.08 mm. Going slightly over to 0.10 mm will only result in slightly more noise, but will not do any harm.

Use the appropriate tools (OEM spanner or GSR "ziptie" method) to remove shims one by one, so that you can record the thickness marked on the underside of the shim. Never turn the crankshaft if a shim is removed from the bucket. Follow the kind offer of Mr Steve in his signature to request a spreadsheet to record each shim thickness and to make it easy for you to calculate which new thickness you need. Make use of "Shim Club" here on GSR to swap out shims.

Good luck!

[Seaking]

Many thanks for the sound advice 2B.. I should be able to get a shim tool in the very near future and will be able to get the job done properly.

I'll have to change out the valve cover gasket before putting it all together again. For these type of gaskets that's falling apart, I typically use a vacuum nozzle held close by the work being done to avoid anything falling into the area.. Where the shims are located, this doesn't seem to be a huge problem but looking at where the timing chain dives deep into the engine, this does concern me should any gaskt debris fall inside and can't be retrieved.. Any tips on how to deal with that if the shop vac hose doesn't catch all the debris as I'm removing the gasket from the head?

Thanks to all for their patience in helping me out with this. So simple of a job, I over complicated it.. sigh.

Cheers

[eil]

You might be able to make do with your current feelers, but the job will be easier (and potentially more accurate) if you pick up a metric feeler set. Ones that go from 0.03mm to 0.1mm in 0.01mm increments on the small end. The bonus with these is that there's no converting units of measurement and hence less chance of confusion.

[Seaking]

You might be able to make do with your current feelers, but the job will be easier (and potentially more accurate) if you pick up a metric feeler set. Ones that go from 0.03mm to 0.1mm in 0.01mm increments on the small end. The bonus with these is that there's no converting units of measurement and hence less chance of confusion.

Oddly enough, though I live in a 'metric' country, my foraging at several shops trip this afternoon shows me that what I have is the smallest available in my area.. go figure. But as it was mentioned earlier by another member, it's good enough for the job at hand.. but I'll be keeping my eyes open for a proper tool.

Cheers

[JTGS850GL]

You may find that you'll also need a micrometer or a digital caliper in order to measure the thickness of your current shims. I've seen many shims that were mounted upside down and no longer have any discernable markings visible. In lieu of that, you may also consider picking up a "thin shim" (like 2.50 or slightly less) and use that as a baseline measurement so you can use a feeler gauge to identify the correct shim size.

As for getting gasket material in the engine, you can pack the timing chain area with rags lightly coated in grease to catch the debris.

[Steve]

The manuals for my bikes show the cam lobes lined up with the valve cover gasket, exhausts forward, and intakes rearward. I have no idea why it isn't just straight up. That is how most of my stuff is.

The reason for that positioning of the cam lobes is to prevent either lobe from pushing a valve open on that side of the cam. That keeps the cam centered in its bearing, not displacing the little bit of oil film. If one of the lobes is pushing on a valve, it can give you some false clearance on the other valve. Line up both cam lobes so each of them is at about a 45-degree angle to its valve, check them both, without moving the crank. I have seen some manuals that specify "check both valves", but others just show the end view (which is rather confusing) and say "line up the cam like this to check the valves".

Oddly enough, though I live in a 'metric' country, my foraging at several shops trip this afternoon shows me that what I have is the smallest available in my area.. go figure. But as it was mentioned earlier by another member, it's good enough for the job at hand.. but I'll be keeping my eyes open for a proper tool.

Although the specs are, indeed, metric, the inch approximations are easy enough to use, too. Metrically-speaking, clearance is 0.03 to 0.08 mm and shims come in 0.05 increments. Imperialically-speaking (inches), clearance is approximately 0.001" to 0.003" and shims come in 0.002" increments.

No need to "convert", just use different numbers that are just as easy.

..., you may also consider picking up a "thin shim" (like 2.50 or slightly less) and use that as a baseline measurement so you can use a feeler gauge to identify the correct shim size.

Since you don't really know what shims are in the engine, a 2.50 might not be all that "thin". Since you are dedicating a shim as a "checker", you might as well get one that you know will be thinner, a 2.40.

Note that the use of a thinner shim is especially helpful if you will be working on more than one engine. Not necessarily now, but if you ever plan on getting another GS with shims, it will really help.

Also note that the spreadsheet offered in my sig can handle inch or metric measurements (you can even switch) and will also accommodate the use of a thinner "checking" shim.

.

[JTGS850GL]

Since you don't really know what shims are in the engine, a 2.50 might not be all that "thin". Since you are dedicating a shim as a "checker", you might as well get one that you know will be thinner, a 2.40.

Yep, I understand and agree. That's why I mentioned "or slightly thinner". The issue I'd be concerned with is when you go too thin on the benchmark shim that most feeler gauge sets I've seen start to get a little too course in resolution. The jump between gauges when you get into the thicker sizes gets a little too course for my liking. They seem to have a .01mm jump from one to the next gauge at the start and then after about .1mm they begin to jump up in resolution between the current and next gauge size.

Personally I'd still pick up a decent digital caliper since that takes all the guesswork out. I've seen OK ones go for around $25. Mine is a Mitutoyo that I've had for about 10 years. Can't even think about how many times it's been helpful. It’s just one of those tools that you never know how much you needed until you don’t have one.

[Seaking]

Great info, gents.. Thanks. Once I get the shims out I'll know what I'm dealing with.. (I have the micrometer as well, my RSV has the bucket shim setup as well and had to go through this process as the previous owner put the shims upside down on some of the valves..)

Odd questions but in lieu of a proper shim tool, is the 'doubled over zip tie' method safe and appropriate to use? I've read people using heavy insulated copper wire and the zip tie method.. but never heard of it before.. Or should I wait for the proper tool for the proper job?

Cheers

[Steve]

Personally I'd still pick up a decent digital caliper since that takes all the guesswork out. I've seen OK ones go for around $25.

You can get one at Harbor Freight for $20 (sometimes less, with a coupon).

Great info, gents.. Thanks. Once I get the shims out I'll know what I'm dealing with..

Be sure to ONLY DO ONE AT A TIME. Do NOT move the crank if a shim has been removed.

..., my RSV has the bucket shim setup as well and had to go through this process as the previous owner put the shims upside down on some of the valves ...

Not sure what size shims the RSV used, but some Yamahas and Kawsakis used 29.0mm shims. The GS uses 29.5mm shims, they are NOT interchangeable, so be sure you are using the correct shims.

Odd questions but in lieu of a proper shim tool, is the 'doubled over zip tie' method safe and appropriate to use? I've read people using heavy insulated copper wire and the zip tie method.. but never heard of it before.. Or should I wait for the proper tool for the proper job?

I have the "proper tool", but have never gotten it to work correctly, so I use the folded zip-tie. Is it safe? Between my bikes and all the others I have worked on over the last few years (probably 50 or so bikes), I have never had a problem with the zip-tie. Yes, they wear out eventually, but because it's folded over, when you see one side get cut, the other side will keep anything from falling into the engine. I have found that you can safely do half a dozen valve adjustments (including shim inventories) on a single zip-tie.

I would NOT, however use copper wire, no matter how well it's insulated. I might be OK to use, but my mind just can't wrap itself around the concept of sticking metal in there when plastic will do the job just fine.

.

[JTGS850GL]

I've used both methods:

The upside to the right tool is, well, it's the correct tool and does a good job at moving the valve. The down side is it takes a little getting use to, but not really too hard to work with. Once you get it down it works quite well.

The upside to the "zip tie" method is it's cheap and relatively easy. Just takes a little time to get use to where to poke it in to get it under the valve you're adjusting. Another up side is you can rotate the shim bucket even with the valve open. The down side is it can pick up a little carbon and deposit it on the valve seat. This makes it possible to get a false reading on actual valve gap until you run the engine through a few cycles.

[Seaking]

Thanks Steve and JT.. I've been looking for that thread information about the zip tie method and for the life of me, can't remember 'where' I saw it.. Can anyone lead a blind man to the source, so to speak?

Cheers!

[JTGS850GL]

Here your go: Zip Tie Method