Is it normal when cold engine for clutch plates not to release?

[Guest]

Hi guys, a question about my 1983 GS 650 E.

I start my bike up and put it into first with a clunk, and when i ride off, I can't get it out of first gear into second.
I stop, and play with gear selector to find neutral, and try again from first, and then it does go into second with a clunk.

After riding down the road going through all the gears, it seems to come fine. And for the rest of day, gear changes are good and smooth.

I replaced the engine oil with Total mineral 20w50 recently. I was told it is better for older motorbikes as it's thicker when cold and thicker when hot and that older engines weren't designed to run semi-synthetic as that oil has only been around 10-15 years.

The bike is 32 years old and thinking that thinner oil would seep out more than thicker oil, I changed it to see if it might stop the minor oil leaks the bike has (but it hasn't really made much difference, still drops a few spots).

What I believe is the clutch plates aren't releasing when I pull in the clutch when cold, probably because the oil is not getting between plates.

I have had the plates out last month to replace number one stopper arm and drive pin holder and plates were fine.

So is this normal for an older bike?
I bought it last year, and only test rode it twice and it seemed fine then, but that oil was black and dirty and very thin.

It wasn't legal to ride in that state as frame had all brackets angle grinded off by previous owner so battery was just sitting on the swing arm and the wiring was a birds nest.

So many months later once I got it tidied up with custom seat pan, motorbatt battery and wiring box fabricated, etc, etc I decided to replace the dirty oil with the Total mineral 20w50 before starting it up.

And I have ridden it 2-3 times since then and each time when cold, it has this issue.

So really just needing to know do I have anything to worry about?
Or is this quite typical with older bikes and I just need to give it a longer warm up to release the clutch plates, or should I try thinner oil?

I have heard after a ride, you can pull the clutch handle in, and tie something around it to keep the pressure off the plates while it's not been ridden. Could that help solve my problem with cold starts, or is it a bad idea that could weaken the springs over time?
I only get time to ride on a Sunday so would be like that for the week.

Thanks guys for your advice on these older bikes, very much appreciated

[ian]

Photo of my bike out on a ride last Sunday with the local VJMC club.

2015-09-27 10.17.55.jpg

[mrbill5491]

You are getting oil drag on your clutch plates and 20w-50 will certainly do that. You really don't need that heavy an oil in NZ. A good full syn 10w-40 is fine. Don't know if you can get the Shell Rotella oil there, either the T-5 or the T-6 in 10w-40 or 15w-40. And you said your clutch plates were fine? Also check your cable adjustment as well. And it's not a thinner oil it is a lighter weight oil.

[ian]

Thanks for your reply Bill Good to hear it's probably just oil drag, and yes, the cable adjustment is fine

So are you saying semi synthetic and/or full synthetic oil are fine for these older engines?

I have some Castrol 4T 10W-40 semi synthetic I used to use in my 1991 GSX600, would that be fine to use?

Will the lighter weight oil leak more?

2015-02-14 11.49.22.jpg

[exdirtbiker]

does the bike have stock or aftermarket friction plates? like a Barnett clutch kit ?

My Dads old CB750 was "locked" until it warmed up.
Start in N, point it downhill and PUSH .. then bang into gear 1/2 way down hill. every one we asked said the same thing... "you should have use OEM, the Barnetts will do that."

[Steve]

If your bike leaks oil, IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF THE OIL.

Replace the leaky gaskets and your bike will NOT leak.

Whoever told you that you should not use synthetic oil in your bike because "it's newer than the bike" is not following his own advice.
I am not sure what standards you have on the oil that you purchase, but here, the oil has a suffix in the name that shows the grade of the oil. The "grade" will be the standards to which it was produced, and they have changed over the years. I believe that our manuals call for 10w-40 Grade SE or something like that. I think we are up to SJ, so following his advice, we can't use SJ oil. Which, on the other hand, is a good thing, because they have been reducing the amount of the "heavy metals" in the oil for several years. Seems that as a car ages and the cylinders get looser, more oil gets past the rings and into the catalytic convertors. The heavy metals tend to coat the catalyst, making it less effective. By reducing the heavy metal content, specifically Zinc and Phosphorous, the convertors last longer. HOWEVER, those two additives are what helps lubricate the transmissions in our bikes, which share the same oil as the engine. Cars have separate oils for their transmissions, so they don't care that the new oils are inadequate for our bikes.

This statement also caught my attention: "I replaced the engine oil with Total mineral 20w50 recently. I was told it is better for older motorbikes as it's thicker when cold and thicker when hot ..." Why would you want a thicker oil, especially when the engine is COLD? Thicker oil is harder to pump through the small passages and the bearings. In extreme cases, it might be so thick that it can't be pumped, meaning that your bearings will be running DRY. You won't think anything about it, though, as your pressure gauge will be reading sky-high, giving you the false sense of security of seeing pressure. It is not pressure that lubricates bearings, it is FLOW. If the oil is too thick to flow, it won't lubricate. And if your engine is leaking oil, it's not the oil's fault. Replace the leaking gaskets.

.

[ian]

does the bike have stock or aftermarket friction plates? like a Barnett clutch kit ?

My Dads old CB750 was "locked" until it warmed up.
Start in N, point it downhill and PUSH .. then bang into gear 1/2 way down hill. every one we asked said the same thing... "you should have use OEM, the Barnetts will do that."

Thanks for advice I'm not sure if stock or aftermarket as haven't replaced them myself as when i had it open to replace drive pin holder, etc they looked fine to me.

Can you tell by looking at the attached photo?
do OEM ones look any different?
would have have anything stamped on them?

2015-08-10 14.29.40.jpg

It's likely the previous owner replaced them as the locking washer on clutch basket was messed up so had been opened before me.

i'm thinking it's likely the heavier oil I am using that is mostly to blame though as i don't recall it doing this when i rode it a couple of times last year before i took it off the road to work on it. And the old oil was a lot lighter weight.

Cheers, Ian

[tkent02]

I have been using synthetic oil is at least some of my GSes since 1978, it works fine.

[ian]

If your bike leaks oil, IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF THE OIL.

Replace the leaky gaskets and your bike will NOT leak.

Whoever told you that you should not use synthetic oil in your bike because "it's newer than the bike" is not following his own advice.
I am not sure what standards you have on the oil that you purchase, but here, the oil has a suffix in the name that shows the grade of the oil. The "grade" will be the standards to which it was produced, and they have changed over the years. I believe that our manuals call for 10w-40 Grade SE or something like that. I think we are up to SJ, so following his advice, we can't use SJ oil. Which, on the other hand, is a good thing, because they have been reducing the amount of the "heavy metals" in the oil for several years. Seems that as a car ages and the cylinders get looser, more oil gets past the rings and into the catalytic convertors. The heavy metals tend to coat the catalyst, making it less effective. By reducing the heavy metal content, specifically Zinc and Phosphorous, the convertors last longer. HOWEVER, those two additives are what helps lubricate the transmissions in our bikes, which share the same oil as the engine. Cars have separate oils for their transmissions, so they don't care that the new oils are inadequate for our bikes.

This statement also caught my attention: "I replaced the engine oil with Total mineral 20w50 recently. I was told it is better for older motorbikes as it's thicker when cold and thicker when hot ..." Why would you want a thicker oil, especially when the engine is COLD? Thicker oil is harder to pump through the small passages and the bearings. In extreme cases, it might be so thick that it can't be pumped, meaning that your bearings will be running DRY. You won't think anything about it, though, as your pressure gauge will be reading sky-high, giving you the false sense of security of seeing pressure. It is not pressure that lubricates bearings, it is FLOW. If the oil is too thick to flow, it won't lubricate. And if your engine is leaking oil, it's not the oil's fault. Replace the leaking gaskets.

.

Thanks Steve, good call, it's not the oil, but the gaskets causing the leaks, lol

I can put up with the leaks for now, and will get some new gaskets when i need to open it up.

So your advice is as long as it's motorbike oil (not car oil), I can use 10w-40 semi or fully synthetic oil with no issues and my transmission will be fine? Glad to hear that.

And yes, I want the oil flowing so I will be getting rid of the heavier oil, cheers for your advice.

[tkent02]

Most of us use Rotella, which is motor oil for Diesel engines. It works great on motorcycles.

[ian]

I have been using synthetic oil is at least some of my GSes since 1978, it works fine.

Cheers, i was mislead thinking the older bikes need to use mineral oil (which I found hard to source and it's pricey in NZ) so very good to know, thanks

[exdirtbiker]

Can you tell by looking at the attached photo?
do OEM ones look any different?
would have have anything stamped on them?



Cheers, Ian

I don't know
I don't know and.. I don't think so.

[Brendan W]

Cheers, i was mislead thinking the older bikes need to use mineral oil (which I found hard to source and it's pricey in NZ) so very good to know, thanks

Advice sometimes gets mangled as it passes along the line. What may have been intended was that you are more likely to find
good additive packages in older type oils. Modern energy saving oils are not only short of Zinc and Phosphorous but contain friction reducers that are not a good idea for wet clutches. I have used 10W40 semi synthetic in the past and am now using 15W40 mineral oil for older diesel cars.
This might help http://www.vfrworld.com/tex_vfr/tech/oil.htm

[yasser]

Sounds like that bike sat for a long time. Many a bike that we have recovered had plates stuck just from sitting.

[Lorenzo]

Hi ian, I' ve been using 20W50 trough all the (hotter) summer, up here, and have not your bike's problem. I've used it for the better shear resistance when engine is very hot. Now I am back to a 10W40.
Your bike could do with a motorcycle oil, at least until you solve the problem, and one which is compliant to the Jaso MA standard(even though it was formulated later than most of our bikes where built). My suspect is the cable register on the engine, maybe you wanna screw it a bit in.