GS850G start-up, running and power issues.

[Guest]

Being a new (to me) GS owner I was pretty happy (reading a few reviews online) that I was able to find a GS850G for such a good price. The previous owner told me that the carbs needed work and that was about it. Well I bought the bike July 30th and have been fighting with it since then.

On the day I bought the bike the battery was not doing to well so we boosted it from his truck... while it was running... I now know that's not kosher when it comes to this bike but at the time I didn't know, sorry guys. But it ran fairly well that day so I assume that it didn't damage it. Since then I have found several problems, first was that the in-line fuel filter basically turned to soft rubber and collapsed on it's self stopping all fuel (I replaced it but I assumed something got into the engine that should not have been there as well as the tank). So I had the carbs cleaned (shop told me they were pretty dirty, not 100% sure I trust the shop but I don't have much choice in my area) and it still runs pretty badly - here are the problems:

- very hard starts (a couple minutes to actually get it running without the starter being needed) (this has been a day one issue for me with this bike.)
- once running it coughed and back-fired (back-fire into both the exhaust and threw the carbs into the air-box)
- very hesitant when given fuel/throttle movement (just revving the engine - not in gear)
- very rough running (stalls until warm, but continues to run poorly when warm)
- almost no power (getting to 50km/h takes 15 sec or so, but 90km/h takes 30-40 sec and is struggling very hard to get there)
- it has started to over-heat after driving for about 20-30 minutes (like "smell" the heat when stopped for a few seconds)

I have done the following to try and rectify the problem (or I just wanted to do it as I had no idea how long it had been since it was done the last time) in order:

- steering head bearings replacement (shop - for safety)
- spark plugs changed
- in-line fuel filter replacement
- gas tank cleaning
- carb cleaning (shop)
- re-attach choke cable
- oil change (synthetic as the previous owner switched it to synthetic - no idea why, but I'm sticking with it)
- oil filter change
- transmission oil change
- final drive oil change

Today (I should have done this a couple weeks ago) I tried running it and pulling one spark plug cable at a time to see what would happen. Three of the four it did as expected and killed the engine, but when I pulled #3's cable (sitting on the seat and looking down its the inside right cylinder - so I think its number three but not sure) nothing really happened. So I pulled the spark plug out and put it against the block and saw a spark (and checked the gap 0.07 I believe is good) but did not smell fuel nor see a vapour coming out of the cylinder while turning it over with the plug out. I am going to re-run the test after the battery is charged again. I also think the starter is fine as it turns the engine at about 450-750rpm depending on battery charge.

So now that you have the information I have questions:
- one: how bad is it that I boosted the bike with a running truck, what damage/symptoms would I have/get?
- two: would there be any reason #3 (i think) would not get fuel? (or do you even see any vapours?)
- three: am I right about that being cylinder #3?
- four: could my problems stem from tappet or timing issues or does it sound like something is way out of adjustment?

I do not want to put much more money into this bike as I have put $800 ($500 for labour, $300 for parts) or so into it. I don't mind getting some cheapish tools and my hands a bit dirty but if this is going to cost me several hundred more dollars or is deep in the bowels of the engine and it still might not work I may have to sell it at a loss or part this thing out and I don't want to do that, Rasputin has grown on me. If you have any questions or need clarification please do ask and I'll answer to the best of my ability. I know it's a lot to read and is a lot of information but the more you know the better my chances at getting this thing running like a champ are.

[jsandidge]

Welcome to GSR! 850's are great bikes. You should add the exact year-model to your signature. It will then show up in every post you make, so people can give you better answers. I'll do my best to answer your 4 questions.

1. Boosting your bike from a running vehicle can damage your R/R. (regulator/rectifier) This needs to be working properly for your charging system. Symptoms will include undercharging (not enough voltage in your system) which can lead to dead battery, not enough voltage for your lights, coils, or anything electrical. You could also have overcharging which can boil your battery, blow fuses, burn wires, etc. It's a good idea to check and clean all the electrical systems and connections.

2. Have you vacuum synched the carbs? If they are out of synch, you could definitely have one of them get no fuel at idle.

3. Yes, that is #3.

4. A valve (tappet) adjustment is absolutely critical. Hard starting and rough running are very common with out of adjustment valves. Don't delay on this, you can easily burn valves if your clearances are too tight. This should be done first, as it will affect your carb synch.

Also, get rid of the in-line fuel filter. Your petcock and carbs have filters in them. The factory didn't use in-line filters, and they are notorious for restricting fuel flow.

[ThorsGhost13]

Jsandidge, thank-you for the exceptionally fast reply

I also changed the signature, I should have done that before posting anything.

#1 - As you described what happens when boosting I think I may have gotten lucky on that front.

#2 - No I have not vacuum synched the carbs, I don't have any tools for that (judging from the Suzuki Service Manual, I'll need a couple).

#3 - Excellent.

#4 - Is the tappet adjustments relatively easy to do (getting to the actual shims then the shim removal and install) or would it better to get a pro to do it (also... a bit expensive)? I would have to get the "Tappet Depressor" the book describes to carry that out.

I'll find a fuel line to go from the tank to the carbs next time I head out to an automotive store.

There are a few other problems with it, just general ones, but I want to get it running proper before I start sinking much more into it. My winter project was going to be replacing all the wires on the whole bike as some are... questionable, a good time killer I figured.

[Steve]

Since we are answering questions, I will continue with my comments.

Jsandidge, thank-you for the exceptionally fast reply
Modestly fast, maybe, but not "exceptionally" fast. Many times, this forum will have a dozen answers in the first hour.


I also changed the signature, I should have done that before posting anything.
Thanks for the sig change. Much nicer to know the year of your 850, as it has some unique qualities.


#1 - As you described what happens when boosting I think I may have gotten lucky on that front.
You won't really know that for sure until you get the bike running and check the charging voltage.


#2 - No I have not vacuum synched the carbs, I don't have any tools for that (judging from the Suzuki Service Manual, I'll need a couple).
The only 'special' tool you will need is a set of vacuum gauges, the Morgan Carbtune is highly-preferred. The only other tools would be a Phillips screwdriver to remove the carb caps, an 8mm box wrench to loosen the lock nuts and a straight screwdriver to do the actual adjustment.


#3 - Excellent.
All references to number or position on the bike are made as if you are sitting on the bike, ready to ride. Cylinders are numbered left-to-right. #1 is under your clutch hand, #4 is under your throttle hand.


#4 - Is the tappet adjustments relatively easy to do (getting to the actual shims then the shim removal and install) or would it better to get a pro to do it (also... a bit expensive)? I would have to get the "Tappet Depressor" the book describes to carry that out.
You would be much better off if you do NOT "get a pro to do it". The job is not all that hard. It is detailed in the factory manual (which is available for download from our "library"). You can get the "special" depressor tool, but many of us have found it much easier (and safer) to use a nylon zip-tie to hold the valve open. That procedure is also in the "library". Shims are also available for exchange at the GSR Shim Club. Look in the Member Services forum for the Shim Club post for details. Valves always tighten up, tight valves are a primary cause of hard starting, especially when cold. The other primary cause is dirty carbs.


I'll find a fuel line to go from the tank to the carbs next time I head out to an automotive store.
Good luck there. Stock lines are 7mm. You will only find 1/4" or 5/16" line at the auto parts store. You might find some at a European dealer, like VW or Volvo. You can also get some from a Suzuki dealer, but make sure it's the proper tubing, not the standard cheap stuff.


There are a few other problems with it, just general ones, but I want to get it running proper before I start sinking much more into it. My winter project was going to be replacing all the wires on the whole bike as some are... questionable, a good time killer I figured.
First thing to address would be cleaning the connectors. After that, an R/R (rectifier/regulator) upgrade is highly advised. Along with that, you will be able to bypass a few wires that might be questionable at the moment.

.

[ThorsGhost13]

Looks like I will be taking a weekend or two in the near future to do this as best as I can. I will also be taking a good look at the shim club shortly there after. Also might try and find a Morgan Carbtune. I have already got the GS850G Suzuki manual printed off and put into plastic sheet holders (keep my grubby fingers off the paper) and those in binder, its much better the trying to read off my phone. I do like this site, so much info to take in, so many things to read. It will take some time to become a proper member of this site, looking forward to it though!

[850 Combat]

1979. The one that has different carbs from all the rest.

You didn't mention the airbox and filter. This bike needs that to run correctly, or it needs quality time with a jet kit. If you decided to start it without the airbox as a shortcut, you will find that it is not a shortcut after all. It won't like an open exhaust or a header all that much without rejetting either, for that matter.

That bike came with points. It is the only GS850 that did. If it still has points, then you should check the gap. I got a decent '79 850 with a bad condenser for free. The previous owner thought the motor was blown. Check the spark at each cylinder. Points do not suck, but they do wear. After I paid a mint of money for OEM points and condensers, I found out that there are lots of inexpensive aftermarket ones out there. Good luck.

[ThorsGhost13]

Well it was a hectic last couple of weeks but I had the house to myself again this weekend so I took several beer with me to the garage and started playing with Rasputin on Friday and Saturday. I opened the top of the engine to expose the cams and the crank on the left-hand side (with the three screws). When I opened the crank I found the timing and looked closer at (I believe they call 'em) points. Finding the inspection in the book for them I went to adjust them. What I found was that each of the points were out of spec and that the two points had a small (0.01 inch or so) blob of metal on the surface of the points. I scraped them clean with a chisel and adjusted the spacing (0.0015 inch) between them. I then measured the tappet clearances and here were the results:

---Intake -- Exhaust
#1 - 0.003 -- 0.005
#2 - 0.0015 - 0.0015
#3 - 0.0015 - 0.0015
#4 - 0.0015 - 0.004

I tried to remove the tappet shim with no luck, I think I need to read the procedure again. So I put it back together last night. I also found the rear brakes were grabbing the rear wheel all the time so I took the pads out and cleand all the parts up with a brush and put it back in (seems to be better but not great). It started a bit easier this morning and ran really well. Got gas and was happy as all hell Rasputin was running really strong... then it started to chug about 3 minutes down the road. -sigh-

I don't know if it's because it got warm or if something happened to the points again, I'm letting it cool down before I try starting it again to see if it runs strong (= warmer temp is interfering with something perhaps) or if it runs like crap (= the points burned or moved again) and I know I have to swap out the tappets and figure out what ones I need, the formula in the book is not too clear, but I'll get it eventually, no worries there.

Just keeping all of you informed. Wishing y'all a good one.

[ThorsGhost13]

Well I think Rasputin may be done for, it won't run because the starter will not disengage without the engine being stopped (you can hear it disengage when the motor stops turning). The starter slows down the engine so it can't rev up to speed to support itself. Anyone have any quick tips/ideas? I have bought a lot of general tools, mostly to work on this thing and I don't want to put any more into parts as I don't want this to become a money pit on me.

Sad, sad day this...

[Steve]

I am going to continue with my comments in blue.

Well it was a hectic last couple of weeks but I had the house to myself again this weekend so I took several beer with me to the garage and started playing with Rasputin on Friday and Saturday.
Somehow, the wisdom of mixing beer and something as important as motorcycle maintenance eludes me.

I opened the top of the engine to expose the cams and the crank on the left-hand side (with the three screws). When I opened the crank I found the timing and looked closer at (I believe they call 'em) points.
Please take another look at your orientation. The points are on the RIGHT side of the engine. As stated in post #4, in reference to your original point #3, "all references to left and right are as if you are seated on the bike, ready to ride."

Finding the inspection in the book for them I went to adjust them. What I found was that each of the points were out of spec and that the two points had a small (0.01 inch or so) blob of metal on the surface of the points. I scraped them clean with a chisel and adjusted the spacing (0.0015 inch) between them.
Please check your clearance again, you either have too many zeros in your number or too thin a gap. The spec for contact points clearance is 0.012-0.016".

I then measured the tappet clearances and here were the results:
---Intake -- Exhaust
#1 - 0.003 -- 0.005
#2 - 0.0015 - 0.0015
#3 - 0.0015 - 0.0015
#4 - 0.0015 - 0.004
#1 - OK - too loose. Some of us will go to 0.004", but not 0.005"
#2 - too tight - too tight
#3 - too tight - too tight
#4 - too tight - at max clearance
Of course, this assumes that your 0.0015" feeler actually passed through and that you had the cam lobes positioned correctly.


I tried to remove the tappet shim with no luck, I think I need to read the procedure again.
If you use the "zip-tie method", the procedure is dead-simple. Use a folded zip-tie that is inserted through the spark plug hole while the valve is open. Rotate the crank one full turn to close the valve, you now have enough clearance to remove the shim.

So I put it back together last night. I also found the rear brakes were grabbing the rear wheel all the time so I took the pads out and cleand all the parts up with a brush and put it back in (seems to be better but not great).
The problem might be with the master cylinder, not the caliper. Since the bike is new to you, it makes sense to check them both.

It started a bit easier this morning and ran really well. Got gas and was happy as all hell Rasputin was running really strong... then it started to chug about 3 minutes down the road. -sigh-

I don't know if it's because it got warm or if something happened to the points again, I'm letting it cool down before I try starting it again to see if it runs strong (= warmer temp is interfering with something perhaps) or if it runs like crap (= the points burned or moved again) and I know I have to swap out the tappets and figure out what ones I need, the formula in the book is not too clear, but I'll get it eventually, no worries there.
Tight valves and too-little clearance on the points (which also affects ignition timing) will do quite a bit to degrade engine performance. Please do yourself and your bike a favor, don't go for another ride until all issues have been addressed.

Well I think Rasputin may be done for, it won't run because the starter will not disengage without the engine being stopped (you can hear it disengage when the motor stops turning). The starter slows down the engine so it can't rev up to speed to support itself.
It appears that your starter clutch is stuck. Not a common problem, but certainly not unheard of. You will have to remove the LEFT engine cover (the stator cover) to get to the starter clutch for examination and/or repair.

Anyone have any quick tips/ideas?
One tip/idea, but it has nothing to do with working on your bike.
Every post I have seen from you has had a different font, and in different sizes. I realize that we all strive to do things just a little bit differently, but it would help a LOT if we could read your posts easily.

I have bought a lot of general tools, mostly to work on this thing and I don't want to put any more into parts as I don't want this to become a money pit on me.

Sad, sad day this...

[Wingsconsin]

My advice is simple...
Stay with it - you are discovering and fixing ALL the problems with a 30+ years old bike that has likely been neglected for maintenance most of that time.
It will take time and some money to get it right - but once you do..it is a marvelous felling knowing YOU made it happen.

Money pit --? There is no such thing as a cheap motorcycle.

[Burque73]

My advice is simple...
Stay with it - you are discovering and fixing ALL the problems with a 30+ years old bike that has likely been neglected for maintenance most of that time.
It will take time and some money to get it right - but once you do..it is a marvelous felling knowing YOU made it happen.

Money pit --? There is no such thing as a cheap motorcycle.

+1

My 83 850G seemed near perfect when I got it which cosmetically it was. Mechanically on the other hand it was neglected. Every time I rode it there for a while I found something to repair or replace like:

tachometer oil seals
cam chain tensioner seals
oil pressure sensor seals
valve clearances and new gasket
tires
fluids
fiberglass fairing repair
fairing mounting bracket repair
lights
brake hoses (still on the list)
carburetors rebuilt by Chef1366 (I'm still waiting for the tool to vacuum sync any day now)
electrical grounds
brake light switches
carb boots and o-rings
air box seals

This is all minor stuff really and not an apples to apples comparison, but meant to encourage you to stay the course. I'm running out of things to go through and it's finally getting there after only a few months of tweaking stuff. I paid $1300 for it and have another $400 + or - in extras so far. I figure with only 30k on the clock that it's going to run for potentially another 60k to 80k miles or more Lord willing! Also, I really like how it handles and looks. It's a win win scenario to me with minimal investment compared to the payments of a newer bike.

[ThorsGhost13]

To Burque73-
Well I have been looking at new bikes so I can have this as a side project while still being able to ride. I paid $500 for the bike and put about $800-900 (includes the safety to get it on the road) into parts and labour. That's not including my own labour (or beer). It would have been nice to be able to have at least one good ride on it in the last 3 months and before it gets too cold.

To Steve-
I don't get drunk off them, I just like the taste, it's like kids with juice and no I will NOT be driving after having anything to drink, I won't drink and drive/ride.

Sorry about the incorrect orientation, I knew what I meant, now if only I could type it correctly...

The smallest shin I have is 0.0015... now I have to go look at the book... just garbed the book while I was out there to check and I misread the book, I will have to readjust (providing I didn't do damage to them) the points next time I work on the bike as they are currently at 0.0015 not 0.015.

For the tappets at 0.0015, some went in nicely but mostly I had to wiggle to start it. The cam lobe is supposed to be facing away from the cylinder right? I have the points to do so I will pull the ones that need to be changed at the same time, see if any can be used on another valve to get the right clearance.

I will add the master cylinder to my list, like I said before I don't mind doing the work if it helps this thing run really well.

Understood about not riding it until all engine issues have been solved and to be honest I probably should have resisted the urge.

The starter is another thing that's now on the list.

I do apologize about the different sized and style of fonts, I type my response in a separate program as I can't spell very well and when I transfer it over to the web page it does not keep font or size (or spacing for that matter) and I can never remember what size or font I chose for the last one but I'll go for size 2 in Times New Roman from now on.

On a side note, I am enjoying both working on Rasputin and the thoroughness of the responses I am getting, so I have to thank those that have taken the time to answer my questions, so "Thank-You".

[Steve]

To Steve-
I don't get drunk off them, I just like the taste, it's like kids with juice and no I will NOT be driving after having anything to drink, I won't drink and drive/ride.

I was not implying you would drink and ride, just that increased alcolhol levels in the human body do strange things to reasoning.
Personally, I would not trust what might happen when working on something important while in a compromised state.

The smallest shin I have is 0.0015... now I have to go look at the book... just garbed the book while I was out there to check and I misread the book, I will have to readjust (providing I didn't do damage to them) the points next time I work on the bike as they are currently at 0.0015 not 0.015.

I don't think you would have damaged the points, you have just limited their ability to work properly. Too-small a clearance will retard the timing a few degrees, and will increase the chance of arcing, even though the condensor is supposed to take care of that. FILE the points smooth, don't scrape them. Use a proper "points file" for best results.

For the tappets at 0.0015, some went in nicely but mostly I had to wiggle to start it. The cam lobe is supposed to be facing away from the cylinder right?

If your 0.0015" feeler fits (even snuggly), you are at least at the minimum clearance. However, if you are forcing the feeler in, know that changing the shim to the next-smaller size will take you to just (barely) over the maximum, but many of us set valves there intentionally. We will go up to 0.004" clearance on the valves.

NO, the lobes are NOT supposed to point away from the head or the valve. The manuals all show the correct placement for the lobes, but it's actually a very confusing picture. Start with EX1 and EX2. Rotate the crank until EX1 is pointing FORWARD and EX2 is pointing UP. In that position, measure BOTH, EX1 and EX2. Rotate the crank 1/2 turn (180 degrees), you will find the lobe for IN1 pointing UP and IN2 pointing REARWARD. In that position, measure BOTH, IN1 and IN2. Another 1/2 turn on the crank will get EX3 and EX4 into position, a final 1/2 turn will get IN3 and IN4 into position.

The reason for these specific positions is so that neither lobe on that side of the cam is pushing on a valve. If it is, the cam will be skewed in the bearing, giving a false reading for the other valve.

May I also suggest that you take advantage of the offer in my sig? The spreadsheet is a handy tool for keeping track of your valve clearances and other service performed. By knowing what shims you have in there now, and the clearances, you will be able to predict what shims you will need to have on-hand next time you check clearances. That will reduce the service time from about a week waiting for shims down to an hour or so.

.

[ThorsGhost13]

Well I pulled the bike apart again for the most part, and got all the valve clearance shims out and here is the list of what was printed on the underside of them;

Cyl – Int – Exa
#1 – 2.70 – 2.70
#2 – 2.75 – 2.70
#3 – 2.70 – 2.75
#4 – 2.70 – 2.70

The clearances I gave on the 16^th of Oct were on the tight side so I would probably guess that the clearances are even less then what were stated for most of the tight “.0015” ones. As it looks like I will be able to use several of my old ones but I will need a couple new ones.

I also took the starter cover off and checked the splines, I didn’t see anything out of the ordinary (looked very clean actually) and I tried to wiggle the gears back and forward also in and out and they are all tight. (Not sure if that’s good or not, I’ll look at my book and check it when I find it.)

I also re-adjusted the clearances for the points.

Now, should I get new tappet shims and offer the old ones on the resource or just keep the old ones as they may eventually wear down (not likely though since it has over 72,000km on the clock.)

Anyways looking forward to hearing from the community. Hope to see you out there some day.

[Steve]

Hopefully you did not take all the shims out at the same time. You should NEVER move the crank if there is a shim missing. You WILL damage the cam.

Did you look closely at the printed sizes? Did any of them have an "X" after the number? If so, that is very important.

.