GS850G start-up, running and power issues.

[phydeauxmutt]

Telling every new guy to get into his motor without knowing anything about him OR the engine is ignorant. Hard proof right here.

This could get interesting because that works in both directions. Are you hinting that we need to get together, have coffee with someone, find out their likes and dislikes, who their previous girlfriends were before suggesting that we go look at their bike to see what it might need?

Or, for the few that might be wililing to take their bike to a professinoal motorcycle mechanic, do we need to take them out to lunch and discuss all their training classes and certifications to make SURE they are qualified to work on the bike?

No, on both accounts. For those who bothered to join the forum, it does not matter who you are and what you do to earn the money to put a roof over your head and food on the table. Personally, I have met members that were floor moppers, physicians, farmers, engineers, bookkeepers and yes, the occasional mechanic. The one thing that brought them here was an interest in the GS series of Suzuki motorcycles and a desire to get one working.

Yes some assumptions are made.
We assume that they have a GS.
We assume that they might have a basic set of hand tools.
We assume that they might do some searching for answers.
We assume that if they don't find those answers, they will ask specific questions.
We assume that they might ask for more details about those answers.

Yes, there will be "oops" moments. Hopefully they will be few, far between and not very expensive. Sometimes we lose.

The bottom line is that we offer suggestions based on what has worked for us. You offer suggestions based on what has worked for you, but I have only seen one actual suggestion, the rest has all been criticism. In the case of valve shims, inspecting what is in there is part of the process of "getting to know his engine", as you suggest. A simple inspection NOW will give a great baseline for further maintenance checks later.

There is no telling what any previous owner might have done to the engine, so making sure everything is basically stock will ensure a good starting point. If your inspection finds that a big-bore kit has been installed, great, your baseline just moved, but now you KNOW that you have a different baseline.

Finally, as Dragon Breath asked, where are you? Some of us will want to know where to go for your services, others of us will want to know where NOT to go.

[Gorminrider]

The valves can still be closing and give good compression numbers, but be out of spec for clearance. Run them tight for too long, you will be burning valves, but you won't know unless you PULL THE VALVE COVER and check the clearances.

^False....

I'd have to parrot Steve and say "which part" ? I'd guess it's the "won't know"?

because Compression test would show too-tight valves wouldn't it? and a bike with noisy tappets will want adjustment even if it exhibits good compression (albeit they are not opening and closing exactly long enough? and possibly doing damage by smacking. too hard.
Neither requires pulling the valve cover to "know" whether valves need adjustment (if that is what you mean?)

"noisy tappets" is a hard one for me to trust and I'd have to pull the cover to be satisfied. The general wisdom seems to be too loose is better than too tight but an amateur like me is prone to take that a bit too far (do you think?)
On the other hand it seems easy for me to adjust the valves as a maintenance procedure. No compression test is required for valves exactly, but since I have a compression meter it's also no big deal to use it and to inspect the plugs too!

Mainly though, your "99% don't do it right" is intriguing and may instruct. Surely, a correction would help me! (Amateur!) I'd love to minimise wear on the valve cover gasket! not so funny-the difficulty of removal sorta tells me it is not intended to be done often !!- and if there's another way that is better or safer than sending every new recruit off to adjust their valves Let's hear It!

I do take your point about sending someone off to "adjust your valves" It does assume they will read the shop manual and be able to execute the instructions therein (something I know is easy to fail!).... It's really easy to forget to tell them some crucial tip that seems "obvious". NOT Removing all the shims might be one of these because I can see now how someone might do this..perhaps thinking to swap them inside the bike where the gauges suggest they would work better..or perhaps to read the numbers on them. As it is now I'll have to add "don't take all the shims out at once!" for evermore after reading this thread .
There's sooo much that could be answered by "RTFM" and then inviting opinions..if that worked, these forums would be a lot thinner!

[Sandy]

Question for DOHC. How long after I check my valves with a compression tester must I do it again to ensure they are still OK and not damage anything? I'm going on 3,000 km ride and was wondering what service interval you recommend. Will they go tight after 100km. or will they be good until I get back and how would I know?

[ThorsGhost13]

Well that got a bit out of hand... rather quickly as it had 16 messages last night after I posted that, and I was not expecting there to be 49 before I checked again.
Phred, I most likely will be e-mailing you soon and may take you up on that offer.

I don't mind being the brunt of the lessons (or jokes, I've got thick skin) to be learned. If other people may learn “What not to do” (literally) that's good in my eyes but I think taking it out on others who make suggestions and things go wrong is not particularly helpful. Damage is done at this point (I have not looked, perhaps no damage has been done thus far) but maybe a helpful “look for ____ if you have done ____, if it's not damaged then you have lucked out. If it is damaged then this is what you need to do. Either way don't do it again you fool.”

Now with that out of the way, what should I be looking for on the cams, scratches, chips and gouges? What do the “x”'s mean on the shims? Also any suggestions on the starter getting stuck in the engaged gearing even without the button being held?

[Steve]

What you want to look for on the cams is all the chipping on the edges of the lobes. They got dragged through the sharp edges of the buckets when the shims were removed, and the edges will flake because they are rather brittle.

Before you turn the crank AT ALL, fish around all the oil pockets around the buckets with a magnet to try to pick up any pieces before they get wedged in the space between the buckets and the head. There will be no way to really tell when you have them all, but be sure to get all you can. Flush the oil pockets if you can. Whatever fluid you use will definitely corrupt what is in the oil pan, so plan on changing the oil, too.

At this point, you will have to remove the cams to put the shims back in with no further damage.
1. Remove the carbs
2. Remove the cam chain tensioner
3. Remove the idler sprocket in between the cams
4. Loosen all the bolts that hold the intake cam in place, but probably don't need to remove the cam from the head, but try to keep the chain from slipping teeth on the sprocket
5. Loosen all the bolts that hold the exhaust cam in place. Again, you just need enough slack to raise the cam high enough to slip the shims into place.
6. After making sure you have all the shim sizes recorded (including any that have an "X" on them) put them where they need to be, number side down
7. Slowly and evenly tighten the holders on the exhaust cam, note that torque is only 7-9 lb-ft.
8. Slowly and evenly tighten the holders on the intake cam
9. Install the idler
10. Install the cam chain tensioner, but follow the directions VERY carefully
a. Loosen the locknut, then turn the setscrew in until it stops, then out one full turn, but hold the plunger to keep it from coming out the end
b. While rotating the large knob on the right side, push the plunger in until it stops
c. Turn the setscrew in until it stops, to hold the plunger in place
d. Install the tensioner into the cylinder block
e. Loosen the setscrew, you might see the large knob move, which will show that it took up some slack
f. Turn the setscrew in until it stops, then back out 1/4 to 1/2 turn, NO MORE
g. Tighten the locknut to hold the setscrew in that position
11. Using a 19mm wrench on the right end of the crank, turn the engine slowly (it helps if the spark plugs are out), feeling for smooth operation and nothing binding up. You need to go at least two full revolutions.
12. If step 11 was successfull, put the carbs back on and continue with your valve adjustment checks.

What does the "X" mean on a valve shim? It's a "plus-size" or a "half-size" shim. You noted that you have 2.70 and 2.75 shims in there. If you had a 2.70x, it would probably measure out at 2.725mm, right at half-way between the 2.70 and 2.75 sizes. The "X" shims are not critical to have. The factory used them to get all the clearances pretty close to the same, but many years and many miles down the road, we find that if we have them, we use them, if we don't have them, we don't, no big deal.

Nobody sells any of the "X" shims, you either have to luck out finding some in an eBay auction or contact the GSR Shim Club. The Shim Club has all the sizes you need, they work on an exchange basis, with donations gladly accepted. Contact member ghostgs1 for information.

.

[jsandidge]

Finally, as Dragon Breath asked, where are you? Some of us will want to know where to go for your services, others of us will want to know where NOT to go.

From his introduction thread:

Damon Gifford
SouthCycle
5030 S. 16th Lincoln, Ne.

Maybe he treats customers better than GSR members.

[Steve]

Thanks, Mr. Sandidge.

.

[zuzu]

Damon Gifford
SouthCycle
5030 S. 16th
Ste. #4
Lincoln Ne 68512
402-405-4096

[DohcBikes]

No longer my shops address or my number. Don't even live within 100 miles of Lincoln. Thanks anyway! There's no such thing as bad publicity.

You won't have a slight effect on my business, as the majority of my service work is for customers I've had for ten years, that won't let anybody else near their bikes, and private engine builds. Not that I even have a public shop at the moment because I really don't need one, you can't just walk into my shop and get service, I don't have time for that kind of thing. However, I am looking into having a shop again and hiring a couple techs to do the repairs I don't have time to do.

You guys are worse than women. Yep, I said it, and I mean it. Get a life.

[roeme]

You guys are worse than women.

I do understand you're somewhat under fire, but c'mon. You're degrading yourself. Full steam.


This bitchin' in here is unbelievable. And here I thought I came to a place where I can learn from guys which are way older than me, have decades of experience wrenching, etc. But no. About once a month, almost everybody gets off the rails. Payday, booze, and then GSR?

You know, sometimes the state of the US of A is understandable.

GTF back on topic. I want to see how we lift ThorsGhost out of the predicament he's in.

[520eek]

WOW! Now I am gonna jump in. I sure hope the original poster gets the bike running and learns some mechanical know how along the way. At least for some of us that's how we learned to wrench on our bikes.

Being that most bike shops independents/ dealers can charge a hefty hourly rate, it leaves a lot of folks out there to give it a go on there own. A few mistakes here and there? Sure... but they are trying.

I have seen the bike shops screw things up just s good as anyone else....and sometimes even charge for it! With these older bikes it's a huge roll of the dice if the shop you take it to will actually get it all done correctly and still have a favorable outcome on the bill.

It is actually a plus that someone goes looking around, finds info and figures something out on their own...I think we all still have some margin of learning left in us!

My first ride was an older yamaha 750 that I managed to seize the rod to crank...should of got rid of it right then. But I stuck with it and an old manual and got it running again after a long summer of inspections/repairs. And I didn't think I could do it at the time. After a while it seemed kinda fun figuring things out and getting it back on the road.

I came here to this site looking for answers to my questions when I got an 850 and wanted to get it running. Glad I found it and thanks to all who helped me...saved me a lot of time and hassle.

My hat is off to you ThorsGhost and I hope you figure this one out and get back on the road soon!

[ThorsGhost13]

Hope everyone's holidays went well! Back from X-mas break and I have been doing some maths about the shim sizes and here is what I have worked out.

Please keep in mind I don't remember where the “x”'s were so I will be cleaning up the cams today and, maybe, putting in the (hopefully) correct sizes of tappet shims. I will give my original numbers as well so if I am very wrong someone can stop me before I put the wrong shim sizes in, I'll check the forum before I get that far.

Cyl --- Org Clearance – Org Shim --- New Shim
#1 I --- 0.003 ----------- 2.70 ---------- 2.70x
#1 E -- 0.005 ----------- 2.70 ---------- 2.75
#2 I --- 0.0015 ---------- 2.75 ---------- 2.70
#2 E -- 0.0015 ---------- 2.70 ---------- 2.65*
#3 I --- 0.0015 ---------- 2.70 ---------- 2.65*
#3 E -- 0.0015 ---------- 2.75 ---------- 2.70
#4 I --- 0.0015 ---------- 2.75 ---------- 2.70x
#4 E -- 0.004 ------------ 2.70 ---------- 2.70

I'd like to get between 0.003 and 0.004 for clearance if possible. I do have the x'd ones from the original shims. And the ones with the “*”'s are the only ones I think I need to procure, but knowing that this bikes tappet clearances get tighter as the engine gets older I know that I will probably need to get some more 2.65's soon as well. As for now I have two 2.75's that are no longer needed but I think I'll put them in the #2 Exhaust and #3 Intake until I get the new ones, that way I don't mess up the cams again.

Anyways off to the national auto parts store to get a very fine file to fix the cam lobs, talk to all later and I will keep you apprised.

[ThorsGhost13]

(Looks up toward a camera directly across from Frankenstein)

“It Lives, ah ha ha haaa, IT LIVES!!!”

That's kinda what it felt like once I charged the battery and got it started. I know I have to get two more shims, and no I didn't take it out for a drive, it snowed almost a foot in the last 24 hours. All I wanted to do was get the blood warmed up a bit to make sure I not only put Rasputin back together properly but didn't muck up the cam lobes to badly.

So I used a paint marker to mark the chain idler and the cam placements so I could put it all back together without having to worry about tooth to chain placement. Once the cam was out (only removing one at a time) I cleaned up the lobe edges with a very fine file to make sure there were no sharp edges or anything of the sort to damage the shims once everything was back together. Then I cleaned out the buckets one by one with paper towel making sure to get all the metal shavings and chips out of and from around the bucket. Once that was done I oiled the bucket and number side of the shim then put the shim (number side down) into the bucket. Lubed the cam shaft and installed it where the markers on the chain were. Rinse and repeat for the exhaust cam. Then the idler was installed, then the tensioner. Then put everything on the top-end back together. (I know I have to re-measure the gaps but I have to get a couple of shims first) Once it was good I went and put a new fuel line between the tank and carbs (no filter now).

Once the battery was charged it took a bit before the fuel really started flowing but it stared, I think the cold idle is a little low as it just died a time or two before it actually started to warm, once there it idled fine. I only ran it for about 4-5min, but it sounded much better, no popping or coughing or back-firing into the carbs.

So now I have the two shims to replace (#2 Exhaust and #3 Intake), rear brake to work on (rear wheel brake pad/disk/calipers is sticking, therefore bogging down the motor at idle), the starter getting stuck engaged once in a while (not all the time it seems, the book said something about a faulty solenoid or switch) and a possible rewire of the whole bike as just about every wire has been painted black by a previous owner and most look a bit rough in places/placements.

Should I look at the CLYMER MANUAL or the SUZUKI GS850G SERVICE MANUAL for a good wiring diagram? (i.e. what one is a better bet?) That's another day though.

[Burque73]

I'm glad for you to have made progress on Rasputin. Must have been exciting to hear it run. You're gonna know this bike like the back of your hand soon.

Did you see the wiring diagram here? http://members.dslextreme.com/users/...0GN_wiring.gif

[ThorsGhost13]

That looks remarkable similer (besides being in colour) to the clymer manual diagram, either way I am looking for a pre-made one but no-one seems to make them anymore so thats why I am looking at making one myself. Still a bit of researching to be done!

Also yeah it was nice to not just hear the bastard cough and sputter, but run so well after what I did to it, and how much of the top end I had to tare apart because of my mistake.