Any painters out there?

[Anonymous]

Ok, so I'm going to paint the bike myself - tank, side covers, fenders, etc.

I already have the compressor. What I need advice on is which spray gun to use. I'll be spraying primer and some flat or satin black over it.

Any advice is appreciated.

Any suggestions for the paint to use is also very much appreciated.

[first timer]

here's a thread that talks about primer.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/viewtopic.php?t=28959

-ryan

[earlfor]

Uhhh Yeah, ya got me. LOL Yacht painting is part of my job description and has been for 20+ years. :-) For something as small as a motorcycle, a detail gun as commonly found at Home Depot or Lowes for $39.95 is all you need and capable of some very nice work. The detail gun cup holds about 8 ounces of paint but thats not a problem since a coat on a tank only takes about 2 ounces. :-)

You will need a compressor capable of maintaining 35 psi @ about 4.5 cu ft min for uniform flow with a detail gun. The standard needle that comes with the gun is fine for the automotive type paints you should be using for a motorcycle.

Assuming you want a finish that is gas proof, acid proof, abrasion resistant and UV filtered for color retention, You will need a multiple part, catalyzed paint. They are fairly pricey and usually minimum amounts you can buy are quarts. Imron for example. (Dupont) paint base (color) cost increases with brighter colors. Black and white are cheapest, blues, reds and metalflakes go up in price. Expect to pay $70 for a quart of black imron. Catalyst is sold in quarts also. The mix is 5:1 base to catalyst. but you will still have to buy a quart of caralyst. Imron 192S catalyst ..about
$75 QT. Reducer 8485S only comes in gallons....about $80
Acrylic urethane high build primer and catalyst and reducer for that, add another #125.00. Throw in $50 for good vinyl masking tape, assorted sandpaper, pads, rubbing compound, hand cleaner and acetone to clean your spray gun with.

Add another $75.00 for a quart of clear Imron base if you want to clearcoat your painted surfaces. (Use Imron clear because it uses the same reducer and catalyst you already bought for the paint.

Add another $70 for any additional colors you want to incorporate into your paint scheme. Imron colors again as you already have the other components.

None of these components will apply well over one part spray can primers or colors. Usually they will bite into that kind of underlayment, dissolve it somewhat, then react and turn to a half cured, cracked lakebed and moon crater effect. :-)

You will also need at least a PVC and plastic "clean booth" to spray in as dust and bugs do not go well with the paint. :-)

Going to need a respirator with an organic vapor cartridge in it too.

Earl

[Anonymous]

Imron for example. (Dupont) paint base (color) cost increases with brighter colors. Black and white are cheapest, blues, reds and metalflakes go up in price. Expect to pay $70 for a quart of black imron. Catalyst is sold in quarts also. The mix is 5:1 base to catalyst. but you will still have to buy a quart of caralyst. Imron 193S catalyst ..about
$75 QT. Reducer 8485S only comes in gallons....about $80

Is the reducer used to thin the paint after the 5:1 base to catalyst mixture is obtained? If so, is there a tool to measure the viscosity, other than eyeballing it?

Acrylic urethane high build primer and catalyst and reducer for that, add another #125.00.

Does the primer use a different catalyst and reducer?

Add another $75.00 for a quart of clear Imron base if you want to clearcoat your painted surfaces. (Use Imron clear because it uses the same reducer and catalyst you already bought for the paint.

If I want a flat or satin finish would this step make it glossy?

None of these components will apply well over one part spray can primers or colors. Usually they will bite into that kind of underlayment, dissolve it somewhat, then react and turn to a half cured, cracked lakebed and moon crater effect. :-)

I called a local supplier today and they told me I could use rattle-can self-etching primer, then spray the other primer over the top with no ill effects. Are they wrong, or were you not talking about the self-etching stuff?

They also said to use something called Bulldog over the plastic parts. Do you know anything about that?

Thanks for the info Earl. Is there anything you don't know?

[earlfor]

I have tried the rattle can acrylic lacquer primer and the self etching stuff. It is ok as a beginning base that you are going to spray the Dupont specific primer over. The problem with using it is (for example) if they are both grey primers, it is very difficult to tell when you have sanded through the dupont prime and the rattle can primer is exposed. (you can use two different colr primers to remedy this problem) I find it is a lot less risky to just use the correct primer as per manufacturer. Generally, the manufacturer designated primer will produce clearly better results.
Your local supplier was not wrong. I guess it all depends on what quality, durability and cost you are trying to meet.

I am rather picky about the paint jobs I do on my bikes, and considering the small amounts of materials required for a bike, even though the materials are expensive, I dont consider cost as a determining factor.

I have found the Imron materials have a useful shelf life of about 5 years sitting on a shelf in my garage with the Florida heat.

I have never heard of "Bulldog". There is a plastics adhesion promotor sold for this purpose when using acrylic urethanes and lacquers. Any good paint store will have it as well as any automotive type paint store.

For my bike. I sand plastic with #80 grit by hand so as to leave it rough.
(its called tooth to the surface) Then I spray the plastic down with acetone to flush any contaminates, oil, etc off the surface and then spray the normal catalyzed primer for the Imron. I have never had any plastic part delaminate the paint coating or chip on the edges.

Uhhh..............there are a lot of things I dont know. Just tonight, I learned of Satchmo's girlfriend moving into the spare bedroom. LOL
Then too, a lot of the things I do know are archaic and inane and no one wants to hear about them. :-)

Oh yeah, Imron doe not come in flat colors, only gloss. If you want a satin or a semi gloss, they sell a flattening agent that you add to the paint.

There is also an anti fisheye agent if you are having a problem with contamination causing pinholes, fisheyes etc. There are three catalysts, each is for a different temperature range. There are accelerators for the catalysts if you are painting in low temp conditions or dusty conditions and they will reduce tack time to minimize dust imperfections. You may also tailor your paint mix for most any condition you may have as well as your natural motion with a spray gun (basically how you tend to move about)
Yeah, I know, it sounds strange to tailor a paint system to a persons movement habits. LOLs

I can also tell you how to lay a pattern and what you are looking for when you do it, how to do test patches and give you an idea of gun settings, pressures for viscosities, etc and general setup and prep as you go if you would like.

Earl

P.S. there are no special additive for painting in low light conditions. If you paint in the dark, you're on your own. :-)

P.S. Yes, you can paint the entire frame on a motorcycle with a spray gun without removing the engine, not mask off the engine, and not get any overspray on the engine. LOL (Did that with the rebuild of the 1100 because by myself, I cant install the engine without scratching a tube somewhere. :-) )



I called a local supplier today and they told me I could use rattle-can self-etching primer, then spray the other primer over the top with no ill effects. Are they wrong, or were you not talking about the self-etching stuff?

They also said to use something called Bulldog over the plastic parts. Do you know anything about that?

Thanks for the info Earl. Is there anything you don't know? [/quote]

[Jethro]

Earl, I think it would be much easier if I just UPS'ed my parts down to you. My head started spinng somewhere around the reducer part.

[DMPLATT]

Earl, I think it would be much easier if I just UPS'ed my parts down to you. My head started spinng somewhere around the reducer part.

Damn, they are starting to learn my secrets. :? :P 8)

[earlfor]

The paint is usually mixed by volume. You would mix 5 parts of base color, one part catalyst, then 15-30% reducer. Or, if we call that ounces, paint plus catalyst would be 6 ounces, then add .9 to 1.8 ounces of reducer. There is a fairly wide rance of combinations depending on open tack time needed, paint thickness desired, number of coats to be applied, and time between coats. Basically, you assemble the paint components to fit your situation and job requirements. This type of paint continues to increase in hardness for about 30 days after being sprayed. It will be sandable usually in 24 hours and hard enough to be compounded and buffed with an electric buffer in about 5 days. It should not be waxed for 30 days.


Primer has its own special catalyst and reducer if needed.
Also there are sandable primers and primers not intended to be sanded.


Earl



[quote="Swanny"]
Is the reducer used to thin the paint after the 5:1 base to catalyst mixture is obtained? If so, is there a tool to measure the viscosity, other than eyeballing it?

Does the primer use a different catalyst and reducer?

[Hoomgar]

See Steve, this is exactly what I was saying in my other thread :P

I am now 100% convinced that someone else is doing this.

I'm paying the man. I want it done right. And I simply do not have
the time or mental resources to give to something of this degree.

I sure hope it works out for you. I am eager to see it.

[Jethro]

Hey Earl, I recently sprayed my front master cyl with some Krylon. Stripped down to bare aluminum, masked it up real nice and everything, came out awesome. Looked like brand new. The instant a drop of brake fluid hit it the paint melted right off. What a waste of time, I should have known. Is there anyway I can paint stuff like this without having to get a credit line with Dupont? I don't want to worry about a drop of brake fluid getting on my paint.

[Poot]

Is there anyway I can paint stuff like this without having to get a credit line with Dupont?

L O L.


my sentiments exactly!

[earlfor]

Unfortunately, Krylon, Duplicolor and any single part paint will practically dissolve if a drop of brake fluid touches it.

I'm glad you asked. :-) There are always alternatives. The automotive paints used by professionals are the most durable and offer the most choices in colors and component choice but they are the most expensive.

We have a few things going for us with painting motorcycles. The parts are small and easily moved or removed. They require small amounts of paint. With small parts, large compressors and commercial capacity sprayguns are not needed. Painting booths can be very small.
For a drying "booth" for bike parts, I have gone as simple as sitting the part on a couple blocks of wood placed on a small piece of plywood to paint it. and then placed an empty cardboard box over it to keep bugs and dirt off it until it dries.

We need a paint that is immune to gas, oil, sunlight, has good abrasion resistance and does not scratch easily. Catalyzed acrylic epoxy hobby paints work very well. They meet all of the above requirements. Although
they do not cure quite as hard as automotive paints, they are easily 6-8 times harder than any single part spray can paint.

A detail spray gun is required and a small compressor. A motorcycle tank can be sprayed with an airbrush, but it is tedious and requires some practice to be able to do something even that large with an airbrush that will only spray a maximum pattern diameter of about 1" I dont recommend using an airbrush unless someone has had a bit of practice with one.


Any RC hobby shop will carry this paint. It can also be ordered online from Tower Hobbies.
The paint you will need is either Hobby Poxy or K&B Superpoxy. They are identical in composition. Each is consists of a base color, catalyst and reducer. Any part may be mixed with the complementary part from the other system if need be. That is to say if you want grey and the store has Hobby Poxy white, but only has black in Super Poxy, then you can mix the two to get grey. If you want to spray Hobby poxy white and the store does not have Hobby Poxy catalyst, you can use Super Poxy catalyst..
Any component of either paint may be mixed with any component of the other paint. The mixing proportions for all of the components used between the two paints are exactly the same. The catalyst come in a gloss, or satin. The paint color is mixed 1 to 1 with the catalyst. Reducer can be used in any amount up to 35%. (1 oz paint + 1 oz catalyst =2 ounces, so reducer up to .7 ounces.) Both paints have a catalyzed primer
available. As with the paint, primers can be mixed between the two.

Any automotive paint can be applied over these paints. There is also a clearcoat available in the paint system. The paint is normally sold in 4 ounce and 8 ounce cans. Reducer is sold in quarts and pints. catalyst is sold in 4 and 8 ounce cans as are the components for the primer.
Cost per 4 ounce can averages about $7. That expensive if you figure it out for a gallon. :-) But keep in mind, for a motorcycle tank, you will need about 6 ounces of primer (thats 6 ounces when all components are combined) and probably 6 ounces of paint (enough for three coats. Then clearcoat will require another 6-8 ounces for three coats.

Still not cheap when you add it up, but you wont have to take out a credit line to get you bike painted either. Keep in mind that factory paint jobs on bikes can last as long as 20 years. This paint is not quite that high end, but it should easily last 6-8 years with reasonable care.

Earl



quote="Jethro"]Hey Earl, I recently sprayed my front master cyl with some Krylon. Stripped down to bare aluminum, masked it up real nice and everything, came out awesome. Looked like brand new. The instant a drop of brake fluid hit it the paint melted right off. What a waste of time, I should have known. Is there anyway I can paint stuff like this without having to get a credit line with Dupont? I don't want to worry about a drop of brake fluid getting on my paint.[/quote]

[Anonymous]

We've gotta clone this guy. 8)

[earlfor]

Uhhhh I dont think so. He can be intolerable at times. :-)

Earl

We've gotta clone this guy. 8)

[Jethro]

Nice. Gonna be painting my master cyl again. Maybe the handlebar clamps, clutch lever clamp and some other small parts. And I won't have to worry about brake fuild, huh Earl? You are a wealth of information. And torment. Sometimes torment, too, but mostly information.