Engine Paint - PJ1, VHT, or POR 15?

[Mike Derrett]

I've been watching this thread for a while as I have an engine in bits that hopefully won't be soon (just don't tell the missus).

The one thing that seems consistent is that all these paint types are after-market automotive stuff. Has anyone tries a more industrial type product such as this:
http://www.lacnam.com.au/downloads/tds-380.pdf.

Surely 510C should be way above engine temp. I know it says semi gloss and that might not be everyone's cup of tea, but if it lasts......

I used their non ISO two pack on the frame and the result is excellent, especially considering my equipment is not the flashest so I have no problem with believing what they say.

Maybe worth a thought?

[Einstein]

It's doing my head in as well..

The favourite up to now has been PJ1 Yamaha silver, but sadly no longer made.. PJ1 sold the "VHT" brand to Sherwin Williams... part of the deal was that PJ1 no longer make colours.

I have even been looking at paints for the military/aerospace industry, they obviously can take the heat, and are available in lots of finishes... the downside is the cost which is way over the top.. although I will probably try to look into it at some point.

If Suzuki painted the engine, and it lasted 30 years without yellowing, surely there is a paint that can exceed this by now..
Apparently, Suzuki used to sell it, but that's in the past.

Maybe, contacting Suzuki in Japan may give a bit of information on the paint they used.... really clutching at straws now


John

[pete]

Well I BBQ'd it today, and the end result is pretty good overall.

The part I rushed (sump cover) is not real flash, but I did expect that because I forgot all about it and rushed through prep'ing it.

However, the majority held up well and has not peeled, which is excellent.

The only bits that did are hard to get at spots that I obviously didn't prep well enough, but I can touch those up when the engine's back together and let the heat of it running cure them, so I'm not at all concerned about that.

I haven't taken extra after pic's yet, but they don't look a whole lot different to after the second coat was done.

Also, Mike, that paint should do the trick, although I would imagine it wouldn't be much different to the Brilliant Aluminium by POR15 as they're both designed for things like exhaust manifolds. Brilliant Aluminium is the same family as the Black Velvet I'm using.

[pete]

Ok, update with new pic's... sorry about the poor quality I just can't seem to get good light for pic's in the garage:

Valve cover is good:



As is the breather cover:



Crankcases turned out pretty well:



But the sump cover has some (expected) issues:



Seeing as I'm getting some other stuff done as well and I'm actually making some progress, everything not related to engine paint is in here:

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=158670

[sparki]

is that matt black? what type of paint are you using and how was the surface prepped?

[posplayr]

I painted my latest engine using VHT silver engine paint. It looks good but the paint instantly turns soft when any kind of solvent hits it. Tried to bake the paint hoping a good hard cure will help make it more durable but no difference. POR-15 engine paint is unaffected by solvents, even harsh stuff like carb and brake cleaner spray but it turns yellow under heat. There has got to be some paint that will hold up to both heat and chemicals. Eastwood sells a catalyzed engine paint which they say will work but I'm hesitant due to all the work involved with a repaint if they are wrong. Anyone have any other ideas?

Ed,
This stuff doesn't yellow and goes on beautifully.
Jim

http://www.por15.com/POR-20-ALUMINUM/productinfo/P2G/

[Nessism]

Ed,
This stuff doesn't yellow and goes on beautifully.
Jim

http://www.por15.com/POR-20-ALUMINUM/productinfo/P2G/

Hi Jim,

Is that silver paint matt gloss or is there some sheen? Also, is it durable with regarding to maring and scratching? The instructions state "They may be susceptible to mechanical damage,
but are unaffected by moderate term weather exposure."

The POR-15 MSDS states it a "Silicone Alkyd" paint.

A google search on "silicone alkyd" turned up a number of hits for high temp coatings. Might be onto something here...

One other concern is that the paint requires elevated temps (300F) before it will properly cure. Temps like that are no problem for the cylinder head but the crankcase is not likely to reach that level without baking in an oven. If you bake the cylinder to 300F the liners will get loose so maybe bake the crankcase halfs and leave the cylinder and head to cure from running?

[posplayr]

Hi Jim,

Is that silver paint matt gloss or is there some sheen? Also, is it durable with regarding to maring and scratching? The instructions state "They may be susceptible to mechanical damage,
but are unaffected by moderate term weather exposure."

The POR-15 MSDS states it a "Silicone Alkyd" paint.

A google search on "silicone alkyd" turned up a number of hits for high temp coatings. Might be onto something here...

One other concern is that the paint requires elevated temps (300F) before it will properly cure. Temps like that are no problem for the cylinder head but the crankcase is not likely to reach that level without baking in an oven. If you bake the cylinder to 300F the liners will get loose so maybe bake the crankcase halfs and leave the cylinder and head to cure from running?

It is pretty much matt (non glossy) , looks more like natural silver . I'll snap a pic of the valve cover.

I sprayed the valve cover and as a test brushed some onto the case above the stator. I have not tried to dig into it *(hardness test), but will report back. It is on my GS750EX

[pete]

Ed and Jim, this is the same family as the Black Velvet I just put on mine and needs the same treatment. I've had the POR 15 guy here in Aus confirm that.

The heating instructions for the Black Velvet were the same at 150C (300F) for half an hour.

[pete]

is that matt black? what type of paint are you using and how was the surface prepped?

Hi sparki, all that info should be in the thread somewhere... but it's POR 15 Black Velvet temperature paint and yes it's matt black.

My prep and paint went like this:

• Soak the parts in POR 15 Marine Clean (5:1 ratio to water but they recommend no stronger than 10:1 for alloys so be very very careful). IF YOU GET THIS STUFF ON YOUR SKIN IT BURNS!!!
• Wash that off thoroughly.
• Paint strip any of the pesky old Suzuki clear coat.
• Wash that off thoroughly.
• Hand sand with 400 grit wet and dry paper (I would've wire wheeled this with a hand drill except I was trying to be quiet at the time). Take your time with this bit and make sure you touch every surface you're going to paint, this is where I skimped a bit and suffered for it.
• Spray POR 15 Metal Ready on and let it sit for about 15 minutes.
• Wash that off thoroughly and let dry completely.
• Used a bit of POR 15 Solvent to thin the Black Velvet a little and brushed on the first coat.
• Let dry for a bit over 24 hours, then go over it with a tack cloth.
• Brush on second coat.
• Waited about six days before heating, but I think as long as you leave it for over 24 hours it should be ok.
• Cover the hot plate in the BBQ with aluminium foil to protect the engine from the greasy goodness and also to block the drail hole.
• Pre heat BBQ to 150C.
• Put the bits on the hot plate for half an hour with the lid shut for half an hour.

The exception to the above was the sump cover which I went over with a wire wheel on a hand drill really quickly and missed places which is why it is peeling off in the corners of the fins.

[posplayr]

Hi sparki, all that info should be in the thread somewhere... but it's POR 15 Black Velvet temperature paint and yes it's matt black.

My prep and paint went like this:

• Soak the parts in POR 15 Marine Clean (5:1 ratio to water but they recommend no stronger than 10:1 for alloys so be very very careful). IF YOU GET THIS STUFF ON YOUR SKIN IT BURNS!!!
• Wash that off thoroughly.
• Paint strip any of the pesky old Suzuki clear coat.
• Wash that off thoroughly.
• Hand sand with 400 grit wet and dry paper (I would've wire wheeled this with a hand drill except I was trying to be quiet at the time). Take your time with this bit and make sure you touch every surface you're going to paint, this is where I skimped a bit and suffered for it.
• Spray POR 15 Metal Ready on and let it sit for about 15 minutes.
• Wash that off thoroughly and let dry completely.
• Used a bit of POR 15 Solvent to thin the Black Velvet a little and brushed on the first coat.
• Let dry for a bit over 24 hours, then go over it with a tack cloth.
• Brush on second coat.
• Waited about six days before heating, but I think as long as you leave it for over 24 hours it should be ok.
• Cover the hot plate in the BBQ with aluminium foil to protect the engine from the greasy goodness and also to block the drail hole.
• Pre heat BBQ to 150C.
• Put the bits on the hot plate for half an hour with the lid shut for half an hour.

The exception to the above was the sump cover which I went over with a wire wheel on a hand drill really quickly and missed places which is why it is peeling off in the corners of the fins.

So how did it work? Please bear in mind the three high heat paints by Por-15 are all different animals. I have tried the Manifold Grey and it must require perfect preparation/application and curing because I was unable to keep it from from bubbling in 2 seperate trials.

[pete]

Yes, true, they are all different to a certain extent, but the guy I was emailing said nothing different prep wise between the Black Velvet and Brilliant Aluminium.

I'm not sure why mine (generally) has adhered ok where others have had issues, but I think they key bits will more than likely be the Marine Clean (as it is really really powerfully strong stuff) and the Metal Ready.

Basically I just followed everything I was told to the letter (except the rush on the sump cover) and it seems the results are good.

Take note though that the engine is completely disassembled, so there's always the possibility that once I get it together and running something bad may happen...

Oh, and as far as how strong that Marine Clean is, I initially mixed it 1:1. I started to soak the lower crankcase then ripped it out in a hurry when I realised the instructions recommended 10:1 for alloy, and instantly my skin was on fire! Took a good dose of cold running water to get rid of that feeling, but no marks on my skin at least.

[posplayr]

Yes, true, they are all different to a certain extent, but the guy I was emailing said nothing different prep wise between the Black Velvet and Brilliant Aluminium.

I'm not sure why mine (generally) has adhered ok where others have had issues, but I think they key bits will more than likely be the Marine Clean (as it is really really powerfully strong stuff) and the Metal Ready.

Basically I just followed everything I was told to the letter (except the rush on the sump cover) and it seems the results are good.

Take note though that the engine is completely disassembled, so there's always the possibility that once I get it together and running something bad may happen...

Oh, and as far as how strong that Marine Clean is, I initially mixed it 1:1. I started to soak the lower crankcase then ripped it out in a hurry when I realised the instructions recommended 10:1 for alloy, and instantly my skin was on fire! Took a good dose of cold running water to get rid of that feeling, but no marks on my skin at least.

IIRC Prep for the Manifold Grey was to spray right over sandblasted material which I did twice. Like I said they are all different animals. The Silver is great and probably closer to the Satin Black you have.

[pete]

Hmmm... indeed the application data sheet does say that!

SURFACE PREPARATION

• Steel surfaces must be dry and cleaned of dirt, oils, rust
  and other contaminants, including other coatings.
• For best performance, the proper preparation is
  abrasive sand blasting, if not then wire brushed or
  sanded or filed surfaces.
• Stainless steel surfaces should be given a sweep blast,
  or otherwise be mechanically abraded to create a
  surface profile which will give improved bonding.

The above is taken straight from the application data PDF on their web site and the Black Velvet says exactly the same thing which is very interesting.

I think POR 15's instructions are a little lacking perhaps which lets them down, as I definitely got told by the guy in Aus to use Metal Ready before painting, but it's obviously not in the application data or on the can.

Perhaps this may explain why others have had difficulty with their paints?

I tend to always ask heaps and heaps of questions and over think things way too much before doing something, so maybe this time it actually worked in my favour for a change