Those of you who do your own powder coating….

[tkent02]

Yeah, I'm thinking about that frame oven, not sure I want a big oven thing out in the yard. Maybe after a while. For now I just want a full sized oven so I can do the bigger engine parts and things.

Gatekeeper posted this a couple days ago…. It was helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T01zIKxP0Ms

[Nessism]

I've seen industrial shops set up for powder coating and they typically use a phosphate etch tank to clean the parts prior to painting. Metal Prep as sold by places like Home Depot works well. These places also typically collect the overspray powder and some recycle it. Sometimes doing this causes painting problems though so experiment first.

Maybe a moot point but not all powders are equal. Polyester is cheaper and less durable than urethane. Not sure how important this detail is though when it comes to restoring a GS. Some food for thought if powder shopping though...

[tkent02]

I've seen industrial shops set up for powder coating and they typically use a phosphate etch tank to clean the parts prior to painting. Metal Prep as sold by places like Home Depot works well. These places also typically collect the overspray powder and some recycle it. Sometimes doing this causes painting problems though so experiment first.

Maybe a moot point but not all powders are equal. Polyester is cheaper and less durable than urethane. Not sure how important this detail is though when it comes to restoring a GS. Some food for thought if powder shopping though...

Yeah Ed, I'm just learning, don't know about the phosphate wash. Wiping with Acetone sems to let the stuff work correctly. There are thousands of different colors and types of powders, maybe some of them are more finicky. Removing old paint and crud will be the hard part, I might need a better way of doing that. This is the Harbor Fright powder, at $4 a can I'm not going to bother catching the overspray. Most of them are under $20 a pound, still not worth recycling for the little bit I will be doing. There really isn't much overspray, and it wouldn't be clean anyway. One can will do a LOT of parts. Don't know about durability yet, but even the cheap powder I'm using seems very hard once it's cured.

If you want a few Kawasaki parts done, would be happy to trade for some shiny replated bolts.

[Seaking]

Soda blasting the crud away works well, and sand blasting for the harder rusty parts. It had been mentioned to me before never to use glass beads to clean parts before powder coating but couldn't find out the why.. I'm guessing they worry the glass that gets pinged into the metal will adversely affect the powder bonding to the metal.. But the pre-heating to off gas and dry the parts should take care of that, I'm guessing. Always better to use soda or AlOx vice glass for powder coating process..?

Did you find that the powder flows enough to cover light defects or does it mirror the defects, say like wire wheel marks etc?

[tkent02]

Did you find that the powder flows enough to cover light defects or does it mirror the defects, say like wire wheel marks etc?

So far it sems to cover very well. Haven't actually tested it on any really rough parts. You can put it on thicker, or do multiple coats too. I just used a magnifying glass to look at the ignition cover that was cracked when the engine hit the floor, you can see where it hit but if I had spent a moment with a file first you wouldn't be able to. It's not noticable at all. I'm sure it all depends on the powder you are using. This is matte black, probably covers defects as good as anything. I'm sure with one of the gloss or something fancy like candy colors the surface might be more critical.

[Mayhem63]

Powder coating

I was a professional coater for many years...started off in industrial applications and then found my passion doing custom motorcycles and auto parts.
There are a lot of different powders for many different applications. Each one has different characteristics.The best overall is polyester...it has good flexibility,uv protection,and chemical resistance. Urethane is a little more brittle I guess you could say but is a lot nicer finish,smoother but does seem to scratch easier. Epoxy has the highest chemical protection but the lowest uv rating it chalks in the sun.
The cleaning is important.we use to have 50 percent of the parts sand blasted and the rest we use to hand scuff then use a Phosphate wash or bath. It's not an etch it actually puts a fine layer of phosphate on the part to help adhesion. Used all types of blast media including glass bead.
Precooking the part is not a science it all depends on the material. Cast is the worst as far as gassing out also the age of the piece, the older the metal the more problems we seem to have with pin holing and gas out
The one thing I don't see in a lot of DIY applications is the explanation that the part has to get to cure temp. and remain for the recommended time period.
For example :The powders recommended temp is 400 degrees for 20 mins. If you have a 1/4" piece of steel and put it in for only 20 mins it will not cure properly. The likelihood of failure is higher.
Powder is great and they have made a lot of improvements in the manufacture of it.
Less orange peel than in the past.
But Thicker is not better. It will lose the flexibility the thicker it is. Recommended mil thickness for most powders is 1.5 to 3.5 mils thick.
Well I've rambled on long enough I hope this helps some out there.

[Seaking]

Please do go on, especially with the heating part.. I had read (and lost the link) about where you set a temp, watch for when the powder flows and then change the heat or set the timer.. something like that, but can't remember exactly what it was.. Thoughts?

[tkent02]

I was a professional coater for many years...started off in industrial applications and then found my passion doing custom motorcycles and auto parts.
There are a lot of different powders for many different applications. Each one has different characteristics.The best overall is polyester...it has good flexibility,uv protection,and chemical resistance. Urethane is a little more brittle I guess you could say but is a lot nicer finish,smoother but does seem to scratch easier. Epoxy has the highest chemical protection but the lowest uv rating it chalks in the sun.
The cleaning is important.we use to have 50 percent of the parts sand blasted and the rest we use to hand scuff then use a Phosphate wash or bath. It's not an etch it actually puts a fine layer of phosphate on the part to help adhesion. Used all types of blast media including glass bead.
Precooking the part is not a science it all depends on the material. Cast is the worst as far as gassing out also the age of the piece, the older the metal the more problems we seem to have with pin holing and gas out
The one thing I don't see in a lot of DIY applications is the explanation that the part has to get to cure temp. and remain for the recommended time period.
For example :The powders recommended temp is 400 degrees for 20 mins. If you have a 1/4" piece of steel and put it in for only 20 mins it will not cure properly. The likelihood of failure is higher.
Powder is great and they have made a lot of improvements in the manufacture of it.
Less orange peel than in the past.
But Thicker is not better. It will lose the flexibility the thicker it is. Recommended mil thickness for most powders is 1.5 to 3.5 mils thick.
Well I've rambled on long enough I hope this helps some out there.

Good info, I can't tell exactly when the part gets to 400 degrees. What I have been doing is watch it until it looks wet all over, then start the clock. The directions on the powder say 400 for 15 - 20 mins, I go 20 from when it looks wet. It seems to work so far, but I know bigger pieces will take longer to heat up. Is there a problem with leaving it in longer to make sure, say 30 minutes or so?.
Also the phosphate bath, is this the last step before applying the powder? Is this something I can do at home?

Is the 400 degrees enough to alter the metal, like make the aluminum soft or brittle, or maybe change the temper of valve springs or other steel parts?

How hot before rubber oil seals start to get damaged? It would be nice to do without removing new seals and ruining them.

[Mayhem63]

re

You can over cure a part....if you plan on doing doing it quite a bit I would invest in a lazer temp gun...like what they use to show you track temp at a NASCAR race.
The phosphate wash is the step right before precook and I don't think for home use would be necessary, Just have to make sure part is real clean,grease free and dry.
Yes 400 is more than enough to alter the metal if left in to long...we had to stop doing frames for the local super truck series because the heat effects the chrome moly tubing. If you stick to the temp range and time of cure it wont effect 99.9% of what you are curing.
I know all to well it is a pain to remove seals...but you have to because trapped oils will continuously cook out, and by the time all the oil is out the seals are ruined.
Its best to disassemble everything and don't put anything in the oven you are not actually coating ie: valve spring...seals and the like.

Seaking I think for the smaller parts or thinner gauges of metal setting the temp lets say recommended is 400 degrees at 15 min
When the powder flows or looks glossy then setting the timer to recommended...works.
They have put better flow factor in powder now and actually made curing a lot less trial and error.
There was a small writeup in a powder magazine about me and the shop and how we used a computerized system to monitor temp and cure cycle.
We were doing Hospital equipment using a Epoxy/Polyester hybrid.
The last thing a hospital or surgeon needs is powder flaking off into a patient.
We attached leads to dummy parts and ran them with the coated stuff and watched the temp of the metal and set the timer when it hit the mark.
I think they have tried to make it as easy and trouble free as possible with the at home versions.
The last point I think is that what ever you are using to cure the powder it has to remain a consistent temp from top to bottom and front to back to ensure even cure across the part.
Seen many a frame come in from another coater to be fixed because the front of the frame was peeling and the back was cured. They had hung the frame with neck facing down and the oven had a cool spot near the floor.

[GateKeeper]

Mayhem63-----lots of great info in your above post.....I am sure this will help out many...

[Mayhem63]

re

Thanks Gatekeeper,
I had the pleasure of visiting the Powder Coating institutes test facility on campus in Raleigh NC (don't know if it's still located there) and play with a lot of what was new toys at the time.
That's where I learned more about cross hatch testing and impact resistance testing,and chemical resistance along with automated lines and infrared ovens (the new thing)
I know they have done a lot to improve quality of powder and even put in over bake protection.

[tkent02]

Planning on getting one of those little table top blast cabinets, for a one type does all blast media, what would you recommend? Walnut shells? Sand? Soda?

[Seaking]

Soda is best for soft metals.. Sand will leave a very rough surface. Glass beads on steel parts leaves a slightly less rougher surface than sand will. Walnut shells tend to absorb water and clog up the system..

I have one of those HF cabinets and with a few mods, it works quite well. I use it with soda and glass all the time.. Glass beads in the cabinet with one suction hose, the soda is outside in a bucket with another suction hose going out the drain plug hole. A lot easier that way.

[tkent02]

I have one of those HF cabinets and with a few mods, it works quite well. I use it with soda and glass all the time.. Glass beads in the cabinet with one suction hose, the soda is outside in a bucket with another suction hose going out the drain plug hole. A lot easier that way.

Don't have the cabinet here yet to look at, but don't they both mix together once you shoot it into the cabinet? Next time you will get a mix?

and does the soda really cut rust and old paint or does it just sit there while you blast and blast?

[Seaking]

The way my blast cabinet is set up, I have two suction hoses. One that rests at the bottom of the cabinet for the glass beads. As you blast with it, a lot of it falls to the bottom of the cabinet to be reused. But soda explodes on impact, which is why it works so well, so there is little to no recovery of the soda. If you left it fall to the bottom of the cabinet to re-use, you'll find that it doesn't cut as well as when it was fresh.. you end up with an even finer powder once it's used.

As mentioned, I ran an additional hose down through the drain plug at the bottom of the cabinet that feeds soda out of a bucket. Because soda is dense, it doesn't easily collapse on itself and tends to make an air hole from the bottom of the cabinet up to the surface and you're soon sucking air all the time.. you have to bang the cabinet to make it fall onto itself again, and that gets annoying real quick. But now that I have it in the bucket, all I have to do is occassionally tap the bucket with my foot (I use it as a foot rest when doing long jobs) and I avoid that air hole issue all together..

What ever soda residue you end up with inside the cabinet mixes with the glass, this isn't too much of an issue.. its the glass mixing with the soda that is the huge concern. Because I had to blast a lot of parts, I resorted to this quick mod to make the work flow process go easier. Keep in mind also that you have to use a good vacuum cleaner with good filters (think drywall dust but finer) to suck the debris out of the cabinet, especially with soda, it's such a dust storm in there you'd never be able to see what you're doing. The glass beads are heavy enough that the large majority of what you're blasting falls to the bottom again and the dust it creates gets sucked out. Its that fine glass dust you have to be cautious off, bad health hazard.

For cutting through the rust, it depends on the type of surface and the type of rust.. you'll learn quick which works best.. For seriously rusted steel parts, you'll be using glass as soda won't cut through it unless you have a monster compressor that can put out 14-ish CFM at 90 PSI.. I haven't yet encountered anything yet that soda won't cut through on the soft metals.. it will remove rust stains off metal easily enough but for the deep rust, glass works great.

if you decide on getting the HF blast cabinet, be sure to look around for a better pair of gloves.. mine tore through at the arm holes, and they're not 'man' sized gloves.. The cabinet itself is decent, but not perfect, just a little work to make it better...