picked up a gas analyzer today

[almarconi]

It seems better now but I'm still assembling and trying to figure out a way to do the exhaust sniffer.

I thought you were going to install a bung in the mid pipe?

[posplayr]

I thought you were going to install a bung in the mid pipe?

It might even be possible to get a small OD pipe down selected tubes to compare different cyclinders.

This looks attactive if it can be made to work. Just been too busy to collect the parts getting ready for the Reno ralley

more,,,,,,

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/diy_exhaust_probe.htm

with this copper tubing construction it is probably possible in most circumstasces to push the sampler tube down different cyclinder down tubes.

[katman]

Well sorry to hear that Rob. My first try at starting the unit up did not go well either. Even though I had two new disks both with the purported latest software, after talking with tech support I had to reload the PC software to get either the PC to recognise either the LM-2 or LMA-3. That seems to be working now and I'm still piecing together parts.

It seems better now but I'm still assembling and trying to figure out a way to do the exhaust sniffer.

The O2 sensor worked for a while, then would not heat up. I'm hoping it was my power supply. I have two swap to the big mama but have not gotten there yet. I'm not sure that I would send it all back just yet. The LMA-3 has a more filtered input for the RPM. Also the app notes say to drop the voltage some using a pot if you don't do the inductive input.

Well I still have a few options to work on.

Yeh, found that out too but I didn't spend all that money to re-wire and re-work their design. I only went with the LM-2 for the rpm component. A google shows that the LM-2 cannot sustain acurate rpm as the LM-1 did. I was very disappointed with their service. I still have the sniffer attachment.

o2 readings worked fine when the unit was actually working. Had some issues with it freezing during record mode as well. Another known problem by everyone but tech support is seems.

From what I have gathered is problems began with the newest version of the software for the LM-2.

I have washed my hands of it. I have enough issues to overcome without buying more.

[koolaid_kid]

I missed this thread at its beginning because I did not know what a gas analyzer was. I have been using an LM-1 on cars for years. It is the best O2 sensor unit out there. It can do its own datalogging, which you can then download and analyze on your PC. It has a serial output which you can syncronize with your datalogging s/w, but is useless w/o OBDI or OBDII. If you mount it in your tank bag map window, you can watch (carefully) as you ride along.
It is not useless w/o rpm, you merely need to know where you are operating (low throttle, mid throttle or WOT). What would be most important, but not currently available, is a TPS, or Throttle Position Sensor. This, along with vacuum, would give you the best idea of which range you are operating in.
An LM-2 is mostly an updated LM-1, which has been out for years.
When I go to a client's vehicle, I use the tailpipe mounted device. It is plenty accurate for that and is what a professional tuner will use if you get a dyno tune.
I personally would not go the LC-1 route, they are quite finicky and have grounding issues that are always being discussed on the car forums.
AFA a bung for every pipe, it would be the most accurate, but would also require that you tune every single carb. A bit too much IMHO for a street bike.
An LMA3 would be fantastic, but at $250 plus shipping is more than I am willing to spend. Also remember, this is really for OBD vehicles, and using them on our bikes is a bit out of the range of intentions of Innovate.
Just my two cents worth.

[katman]

I have been using an LM-1 on cars for years. It is the best O2 sensor unit out there. It can do its own datalogging, which you can then download and analyze on your PC. It has a serial output which you can syncronize with your datalogging s/w, but is useless w/o OBDI or OBDII. If you mount it in your tank bag map window, you can watch (carefully) as you ride along.
It is not useless w/o rpm, you merely need to know where you are operating (low throttle, mid throttle or WOT).

I don't know what bike you ride but holding on at WOT and watching where I am going is all I can do to keep things safe. I am not about to be looking at my tank during a WOT run and trying to remember the numbers.

Without rpm the data log is useless. You don't know where you are on the line. bottom of third gear or top of 4th or what.

The problem I had was finding something that was compatible with a NON OBDII vehicle. All other units seem to get rpm signal from the ecu. They are of some use without the rpm but without it there are plenty of systems out there. I didn't have to spend the money on the LM-2.

ONe comment the tech said while I was talking to him that was interesting. "Lets focus on the crashing since the rpm isn't that important" With that attitude I can see why they are having problems.

I am think it will be an iPhone interface I will be getting next if I can't find rpm integration.

[koolaid_kid]

I understand that you disagree, and I have no problem with that.
However, when doing a WOT run, I will start the logger, make the run, stop the logger, perhaps make another run or two, then take the data to the computer and examine it in Excel.
It is extremely easy to tell by the data where the WOT started. It merely takes a few tries and you will know. RPM is fairly useless when tuning a jet, much more useful when tuning a computer. All you really need to know is throttle position, hence the need for a TPS.
Looking at my tank bag while controlling 100+ HP is not gonna happen.
When I do look at the bag is during partial throttle runs, just riding around, pretty much on the needle. Easy to do, no stress involved.
My bikes are listed in my signature, btw. Both are peppy.

[katman]

I understand that you disagree, and I have no problem with that.
However, when doing a WOT run, I will start the logger, make the run, stop the logger, perhaps make another run or two, then take the data to the computer and examine it in Excel.
It is extremely easy to tell by the data where the WOT started. It merely takes a few tries and you will know. RPM is fairly useless when tuning a jet, much more useful when tuning a computer. All you really need to know is throttle position, hence the need for a TPS.
Looking at my tank bag while controlling 100+ HP is not gonna happen.
When I do look at the bag is during partial throttle runs, just riding around, pretty much on the needle. Easy to do, no stress involved.
My bikes are listed in my signature, btw. Both are peppy.

I submit that 1/2 to 3/4 throttle needle runs can be a handful as well above 6k.

I agree with parts of what you say but respectfully not with others. My point was to get a system with an rpm log as well which was a waste of money with the innovate product I purchased.

TPS would be nice. They make kits for the Holleys, would be nice to see one for old school flatslides.

[koolaid_kid]

I submit that 1/2 to 3/4 throttle needle runs can be a handful as well above 6k.

I agree with parts of what you say but respectfully not with others. My point was to get a system with an rpm log as well which was a waste of money with the innovate product I purchased.

TPS would be nice. They make kits for the Holleys, would be nice to see one for old school flatslides.

I cannot disagree. The best way to tune is using a computer, OBDI or OBDII. That is what Innovate designed the LM products to work with, and they do it well.
But we don't have that option, and have to make do. Tuning on the needle is not extremely difficult, as long as you are able to tell where you are running. Again, it requires starting the logger and being able to tell where you are when you go to examine the data. It is not a perfect system, not by a long shot. But it can be made to work, and is a lot less expensive than endless plug chops. If you already own the LM-1, which I do.
My GPz has an electronic tach, so it could probably be made to work with an LMA3. But with an analog tach, IDK.
Also, consider what tuners use when they dyno tune your bike. They have an O2 sensor they stick up the tailpipe, and tune the main jet for WOT. This is the main issue I have for getting a bike or car tuned, they seldom consider every day tuning where you are mainly partial throttle, which is on the needle for us.

[koolaid_kid]

You have me thinking on this. so this is what I would like:
AFR, which we have with the LM-1
TPS
Vacuum
MPH
Gear
RPM I find the least significant in an analog system. In a digital system there are maps which correlate vacuum (MAP) and RPM. They are also divided into sections, so you can tune each section as you go. But we don't have those maps available to us.
The LMA3 would probably allow the integration of most of these parameters, but would require more effort.
The long and short of it is that we are adapting a system not directly designed for our systems.

[katman]

It is a game of compromises and since rpm is the only other parameter we can use for our bikes I wanted it.

There are systems you can get to add parameters but the cost climbs quickly. They are out there though. Innovate makes a auxbox that you can plug some more into but that defeats the purpose of using it for multiple bikes... and on .... and on......

[posplayr]

I cannot disagree. The best way to tune is using a computer, OBDI or OBDII. That is what Innovate designed the LM products to work with, and they do it well.
But we don't have that option, and have to make do. Tuning on the needle is not extremely difficult, as long as you are able to tell where you are running. Again, it requires starting the logger and being able to tell where you are when you go to examine the data. It is not a perfect system, not by a long shot. But it can be made to work, and is a lot less expensive than endless plug chops. If you already own the LM-1, which I do.
My GPz has an electronic tach, so it could probably be made to work with an LMA3. But with an analog tach, IDK.
Also, consider what tuners use when they dyno tune your bike. They have an O2 sensor they stick up the tailpipe, and tune the main jet for WOT. This is the main issue I have for getting a bike or car tuned, they seldom consider every day tuning where you are mainly partial throttle, which is on the needle for us.

When I spoke to tech support about the RPM inputs on the LM-2 vs. the LMA-3 both using analog or inductive clamps. They said the whole issues was blow out of proportion however if there was any issue using the LM-2 the LMA-3 should do well.

From what they have said, it appears that the LMA-3 measures RPM by averaging the time across multiple ignition pulses, the LM-2 estimates RPM by measuring the time between ignition pulses. That makes the LM-2 more responsive and much more suceptable to noise.

Since I have both I'm hoping to be able to get one or the other to work without doing something too heroic.

If it gets too bad I might have to send an algorithm that will filter the noise that is causing the jumping

[katman]

When I spoke to tech support about the RPM inputs on the LM-2 vs. the LMA-3 both using analog or inductive clamps. They said the whole issues was blow out of proportion however if there was any issue using the LM-2 the LMA-3 should do well.

From what they have said, it appears that the LMA-3 measures RPM by averaging the time across multiple ignition pulses, the LM-2 estimates RPM by measuring the time between ignition pulses. That makes the LM-2 more responsive and much more suceptable to noise.

Since I have both I'm hoping to be able to get one or the other to work without doing something too heroic.

If it gets too bad I might have to send an algorithm that will filter the noise that is causing the jumping

My 29.00 inductive pickup was already out by 1k @ 3k. It would bounce from 1900 rpm to 2800 rpm and could not read above 5k. Several standing wot runs and only one made it to 5k

[koolaid_kid]

Both very interesting posts. Could there have been EMI from the other coil or other plug wires? Why would Innovate use two different methods for measuring RPM? Did they find a flaw in one which they attempted to correct by using a different method? Both are estimators, of course.

[posplayr]

My 29.00 inductive pickup was already out by 1k @ 3k. It would bounce from 1900 rpm to 2800 rpm and could not read above 5k. Several standing wot runs and only one made it to 5k

So after hearing hundreds of complaints about RPM, they must be streaching the truth a little.

Something else unusual is the forum was shut down for uh err......improvements

[posplayr]

Both very interesting posts. Could there have been EMI from the other coil or other plug wires? Why would Innovate use two different methods for measuring RPM? Did they find a flaw in one which they attempted to correct by using a different method? Both are estimators, of course.

The LM-1 and LMA-3 methods have an inherent noise advantage as I previously described. The LM-2 software was to impove dynamic performance as they describe. If they are using an "estimator" for the LM-2 the it is probably a "weaner" filter.

My suggestion would not be to use that type but rather a modified "knarly notch"