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    Backfiring causes?

    I had my bike apart for some catch up maintenance, I replaced the intake o-rings, thoroughly cleaned the carbs and replaced all o-rings, checked valve clearances and measured all valve shims. When I got everything together I tried to start it up but it won't start. It kind of wants to catch but it wont, and it pops and backfires. I thought perhaps my cam chain jumped on the sprockets, as I'd turned the engine checking clearances a bit before I remembered to put the tensioner back in. I checked the cam timing as per instructions today and everything seems dead on. The #1 mark on the exhaust cam points straight at the front gasket surface when 1-4 on the advace are TDC. There are precisely 20 pins between the specified marks on the cam sprockets.

    It seems obvious that I did something wrong though (who knew??). I'm pretty sure I didn't cross the plug wires, I double-triple checked them. Of course that's not always enough with me, but assuming they are right that leaves fuel, right?

    I know that lean conditions will cause popping and backfiring, but can it be bad enough to make it fire directly out the tailpipe, like a gun shot? All the fuel screws are at about 2 1/2 turns out, the air screws are at 1 1/2. The carbs were all dipped, rinsed with spray cleaner and blown out with compressed air. all jets and stuff were thoroughly cleaned as well. All new o-rings from Mr. Barr. The petcock is working and all bowls fill with fuel. The airbox is pretty well sealed. I did the 'bench balancing' as per instructions. I just can't imagine what I'm missing. The carbs are off it again from checking the cam chain, I'm not sure if I need to open them up again, or not. I thought of a possible test (haven't tried it yet), if I put it all back together and cranked the engine with the plug wires disconnected for a few seconds, should the plugs be visibly damp? Any tips or hints? Help? Please?


    <<<Final Update>>>

    Just because this post ended up being such an odyssey I will put the spoiler here. The main cause of my backfiring seems to be that somehow I left all the ignition timing adjustment screws on the breaker plate loose, so there was quite a bit of 'break dancing' going on under the points cover. Funny, I don't remember touching it before all of this. What was I saying again? Oh yes - By the time SteveN mentioned 'checking easiest things first like ignition timing (always good advice), I'd already discovered a cylinder with no compression, so obviously the bike would not have run well, backfiring or no. The cause of THAT was that our heroine neglected to (okay she was scared to) check and adjust her valve clearances for many thousands of miles. She was damn lucky not to have burned an exhaust valve or two, that's how tight the valves were. After putting MUCH smaller shims in, setting the timing, and bench adjusting the carbs the bike runs FANTASTIC! Today I fine tuned ignition timing with a timing light and it runs even better, I guess I'm ready to vacuum sync the carbs and it should run even better yet. Still pretty smooth though.

    So service those valves regularly, kids! It's very easy using Basscliff's tutorial, which includes several variations of other members. It's also a good idea to do a compression check every tune up, to keep tabs on your engine's health.
    Last edited by Allie; 09-23-2010, 04:03 PM.
    "Men will never be free until Mark learns to do The Twist."

    -Denis D'shaker

    79 GS750N

    #2
    Couple of thngs jumped out at me.

    You say "There are precisely 20 pins between the specified marks on the cam sprockets." Make sure you count carefully. Pin #1 should be over the #2 mark on the exhaust cam, pin #20 should be over the #3 mark on the intake cam. That means there are only 18 pins between the marks. That part caught me a few times, it's worth going back to re-check.

    Another thing, your fuel screws (the ones on the bottom) should only be out about 3/4 turn, not 2 1/2. That will make it too rich to the point that it will have trouble starting. The air screws (the ones on the sides) are correct at about 1 1/2 turns.

    Try those and let us know.

    .
    sigpic
    mine: 2000 Honda GoldWing GL1500SE and 1980 GS850G'K' "Junior"
    hers: 1982 GS850GL - "Angel" and 1969 Suzuki T250 Scrambler
    #1 son: 1986 Yamaha Venture Royale 1300 and 1982 GS650GL "Rat Bagger"
    #2 son: 1980 GS1000G
    Family Portrait
    Siblings and Spouses
    Mom's first ride
    Want a copy of my valve adjust spreadsheet for your 2-valve per cylinder engine? Send me an e-mail request (not a PM)
    (Click on my username in the upper-left corner for e-mail info.)

    Comment


      #3
      Yes pins one and twenty are directly over the marks. That's interesting about the fuel screws (the ones under the carb by the bowl, right?) because they definitely were all in the area of 2 1/2 turns out when I took them out. I will definitely try 3/4. The boots did look a bit moist with fuel when I took the carbs off again. I'll try tomorrow, It's a lazy day and I'm full of pie . Thanks muchly!
      "Men will never be free until Mark learns to do The Twist."

      -Denis D'shaker

      79 GS750N

      Comment


        #4
        One of these days we are going to hunt you down to get some of that pie.


        By the way, how big is your hubby?

        .
        sigpic
        mine: 2000 Honda GoldWing GL1500SE and 1980 GS850G'K' "Junior"
        hers: 1982 GS850GL - "Angel" and 1969 Suzuki T250 Scrambler
        #1 son: 1986 Yamaha Venture Royale 1300 and 1982 GS650GL "Rat Bagger"
        #2 son: 1980 GS1000G
        Family Portrait
        Siblings and Spouses
        Mom's first ride
        Want a copy of my valve adjust spreadsheet for your 2-valve per cylinder engine? Send me an e-mail request (not a PM)
        (Click on my username in the upper-left corner for e-mail info.)

        Comment


          #5
          Weeeeell everything is back together again. I turned all of the fuel screws from the seated (gently) position out 3/4 of a turn. Now when I crank the motor it very faintly feels like it's thinking about firing. No pops or backfires so that's good. After a bit of cranking a peeked at the plugs, and two and three are a smidge moist, one and four look pretty dry. That could mean a couple of things, or nothing, I guess, but what comes to mind is a spark problem originating from either the coil or the points. I'm pretty sure I didn't jostle anything with the points, but hmmm maybe the coil wire for 2 and 3 got bumped when I was messing with the gas tank.

          I'm so done working on it for now, so either later tonight or tomorrow morning I'll check ignition (and take my protien pills!) before doing anything else. 3/4 definitely seems better, if ignition is okay should I just back each screw out another 1/4 turn and try again? It's gonna be a real PAIN turning those screws with the carbs installed .

          Thanks muchly. I think it's a fivegone conclusion that if I ever meet GSers in person baked goods are mandatory. My price for opening my mouth!
          "Men will never be free until Mark learns to do The Twist."

          -Denis D'shaker

          79 GS750N

          Comment


            #6
            lol, love the extra numbers and talk of baked goods in exchange for wrenching help.

            Anyways my 650 is a bit different of course but using a small screwdriver for computer repair I was able to adjust those mix screws with the carbs on the bike. If it is the ones I think the process was to get it to idle as high as it would then move on to the next, and if it got to high set the idle set screw back a bit and continue.

            I always try to think about the issue and work backwards stopping at the easiest fixes / checks first. Backfiring is usually from unburnt fuel igniting in the pipes, could be from one cylinder not firing and expelling the fuel to mix with the hot exhaust from the other cylinders, or could just be extra fuel from all the cylinders. My old Monte Carlo did that when one of the wires went and I was running essentially without one of the cylinders.

            You need spark to even try to set the carbs so check that they are sparking, usually I just remove 1 plug and hit the starter and see if it arcs. Then repeat and make sure they are all firing. If that is good move on to the carbs and most likely that adjustment Steve was talking about.

            Good luck!

            Comment


              #7
              I lied, I went back out and checked for spark - all okay. While I was at it I checked for compression - NOT okay. Now I realize it should be warm for accurate readings, but 2 and 3 are LOW. 3 is like 50 psi or so, 2 is pretty much nil. The others are 100 psi cold. I don't like THAT... I guess I take the valve cover back off and turn the engine slowly to see if anything looks sticky. I'm really stymied and frustrated. Every shim went back in its proper bucket, and they're still there. I don't see how I could have bent a valve, as the timing chain appears to never have jumped, and appears perfectly timed. Apparently, I'm a mechanical menace.
              "Men will never be free until Mark learns to do The Twist."

              -Denis D'shaker

              79 GS750N

              Comment


                #8
                Ouch... that would do it... I am just in the process of buttoning up my 650 top end. If you dig into that level just do yourself a favor and plan to use OEM gaskets on the rebuild. The piston rings ran me $130 and cylinder hone at the stealership another $45, some say pricey but they did a great job and charged me 1/2hr labor for about 90 minutes of work.

                I didnt take a lot of pictures of the process but my little rebuild thread has a few... but before you fear the worse can you post up your shim before and afters to see if maybe its just a miscalc leaving some gaps?

                (not saying you would but adding one to everything does NOT apply to shims)

                Comment


                  #9
                  I always fear the worst! I'm picturing a hole the size of nebraska in my piston, and valves bent into pretzels... . I didn't change any shims, I just measured them and put them back. Nothing should have changed there. Coincidentally, cylinder 2, the one with no compression, had a very fouled plug when I first pulled them out. Something may have already been up there... still before I touched it, the bike's worst offense was that it was getting very cold blooded, and the idle was getting a little hard to pin down. It ran fine when it was warm. Classic signs of intake woes. Somehow I made it all worse.
                  "Men will never be free until Mark learns to do The Twist."

                  -Denis D'shaker

                  79 GS750N

                  Comment


                    #10
                    No, please no!

                    Hey I don't think you did anything wrong.
                    But for comp. test cold put some oil down the plug holes, keep the plugs out and open the throttle wide, or mo-betta have the carbs off.
                    Read some of this guy's advice: http://www.dansmc.com/mc_repaircourse.htm
                    Bill
                    1982 GS1100G- road bike
                    1990 GSX750F-(1127cc '92 GSXR engine)
                    1987 Honda CBR600F Hurricane

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Thanks Bill, WOW Dan has lots of good info for noobs like me! I guess you're right, I don't seem to have flubbed anything, but really even the 'good' cylinders are borderline low. Things are really pointing to the valves now, as in it's WAY time for an adjustment. I'll squirt some oil in the cylinders tonight and see what happens, but I bet it's valves. I'm thinking the decline in running prior to my working on it was more than just intake o-rings. I'm also betting that I knocked some carbon loose in #2 when I checked the shims (zip tie method) and it's wedging the valve open enough to kill compression. I did peek in each spark plug hole and verify that all valves at least open and close visibly, so I can rest my mind about bent valves and holed pistons. If I'm lucky I don't have a burned exhaust valve for #2 or 3, and won't need a valve job...
                      "Men will never be free until Mark learns to do The Twist."

                      -Denis D'shaker

                      79 GS750N

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Rough compression test results, taken with the carbs on, plugs out, wide open throttle.

                        No oil:

                        #1 - 100 psi
                        #2 - 0 psi
                        #3 - 60 psi
                        #4 - 100 psi

                        Oil squirted in cylinders:

                        #1 - 150 psi
                        #2 - 0 psi
                        #3 - 100 psi
                        #4 - 230 psi !!!!!!!!!!

                        It seems fairly obvious that I need a rebuild before it ever sees the road again, and that's just not going to happen right now. I guess it's going into storage and I'll think about it again in the spring
                        "Men will never be free until Mark learns to do The Twist."

                        -Denis D'shaker

                        79 GS750N

                        Comment


                          #13
                          You may want to check you timing marks under cover the at the points. I had to adjust mine slightly after doing a valve shim adjustment. If you don't have a manual, let me know, I can paste the instructions.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Before you start a tear-down, I would tap on each of the valves in #2. Use a wood or plastic dowel and a small hammer, place the dowel on the closed valve, tap it so it goes down about 1/8" and slams shut. That might be just enough to unseat any carbon that might be lodged there. Be careful, though, how far you tap the valve open. If the piston is at or near TDC, you might remove all doubt as to whether a rebuild will be necessary.

                            .
                            sigpic
                            mine: 2000 Honda GoldWing GL1500SE and 1980 GS850G'K' "Junior"
                            hers: 1982 GS850GL - "Angel" and 1969 Suzuki T250 Scrambler
                            #1 son: 1986 Yamaha Venture Royale 1300 and 1982 GS650GL "Rat Bagger"
                            #2 son: 1980 GS1000G
                            Family Portrait
                            Siblings and Spouses
                            Mom's first ride
                            Want a copy of my valve adjust spreadsheet for your 2-valve per cylinder engine? Send me an e-mail request (not a PM)
                            (Click on my username in the upper-left corner for e-mail info.)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I will try it, but if I understand correctly it looks like I need rings no matter what. Still, hopefully that will give me some compression in #2.
                              "Men will never be free until Mark learns to do The Twist."

                              -Denis D'shaker

                              79 GS750N

                              Comment

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