Announcement

**tejasmud** · 08-30-2010, 04:31 PM

There ya go!

R&D= release and develop.. Sheesh....

Good to hear they have fixed the bugs with the LM2.

**posplayr** · 08-30-2010, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by tejasmud View Post

There ya go!

R&D= release and develop.. Sheesh....

Good to hear they have fixed the bugs with the LM2.

They must have had some real problems to shut down their support forum. Apparently it is mostly in the software as well.

never heard of anything like that before

**posplayr** · 10-04-2010, 10:21 PM

Funny I though my other LMA-3 was an 8V reference

This is a different LMA-3 as I was sure the op amps were duals and this is a quad -40 to +85 degC part

PCB 09-0004 Rev E
Firmware 13-0003 Rev 1.12
S/N AB05552

TI LMV324I

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmv324.pdf

Nat LM339M

403 Forbidden

http://i2c2p.twibright.com/datasheet/LM139.pdf

Nat LM1086 CS-5.0

http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM1086.pdf

The HC4051 is a 8:1 analog mux.

Page not found – Innovate Motorsports

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=71730&postcount=100

**posplayr** · 10-16-2010, 03:54 PM

Page not found – Innovate Motorsports

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/showthread.php?p=72099&posted=1#post72099

Originally posted by posplayr

I started a tread in this fourm about the fact that there were no negative reviews about Innovate products any where on the WWW. I started listing all reviews I could find (very few) most of which were bad.
I did that about two weeks ago. Guess what it is now gone.

Now how is that for customer support. Really nice they keep the forum so spick spanking clean

some of the reviews I have found

From what I know about the RPM input this is a very generous review

Innovate LM 2 v/s Zeitronix Zt-2 Air/Fuel Ratio Meter Comparison Review - Digital Reviews Network

http://www.digitalreviews.net/reviews/automotive/innovate-lm-2-vs-zeitronix-zt-2-airfuel-ratio-meter-comparison-review.html

But for the purpose I’ve described the Innovate loses some of it’s value because the RPM function is not easy transferable from car to car, and RPM status is needed to guage the relevence of the AFR.
I urge Innovate to develop this area, even using a peripheral plug in device which picks up for example, a magnetic tape put on the harmonic balancer pulley would suffice.

There must be some other methodology available rather than trying to accommodate the multitude of ignition systems that need to be addressed to make the current pick ups work.

Innovate Simple Sensor Interface SSI-4 - Reviewed - Digital Reviews Network

http://www.digitalreviews.net/reviews/automotive/innovate-simple-sensor-interface-ssi-4-reviewed.html

Conclusion
With a recommendation of “thumbs and fingers” down this product appears to be basically unsupported by any instructions that you can easily follow or that you could have faith in. The satisfaction of product queries and the possibility of a working connection seems to depend pretty much entirely on the good nature and expertise of you guys within the forum.
This may be harsh but I say, save your money and connect up the ZT-2 Zeitronix or use the Innovate LM2 AFR and watch the tacho in your car!

**posplayr** · 10-16-2010, 03:56 PM

cc: this post from innovate forum

Originally posted by shrinker

If they wanted to remove all negative comments about their gear then there wouldnt be many threads left. This forum used to be very open, in the early days it had negativity and all sorts of stuff. It was a very honest place, people could read the good and the bad and that was a good thing I think. We all have to realize that whatever it is thats made is never perfect in all situations. The main thing to be gained by a manufacturer from a forum is not just customers helping etc but its honest feedback and criticism, either good or bad and that should give the manufacturer incentive to improve the issues exposed by the public.
Manufacturers who dont listen to their customers will DIE. The problem is when the manufacturer becomes quite large as Innovate are and they loose touch. When the LM-2 was introduced I mentioned that I thought it was a mistake to stop making the LM-1 and I was taken down by Innovate management, guess what-- the LM-1 is still their best product and its still a mistake not making it.
Innovate need to wake up and fix their product line with quality components and design and make gear that people dont have issues with. Other people seem to do it.
The early LM-1's are bulletproof. I dont know about the later production ones. The early ones even work on flat batteries, I know our race car doesnt maintain its little data logger battery correctly and the LM-1 still works, Its a great piece of gear. It goes down to 11.5 volt and still runs. ( the car is 16 volt so it has to have an independent 12 volt battery)
In the age of search engines its not hard for anyone to find whatever information or negative reviews etc. so it immediately creates suspicion to edit.

**posplayr** · 10-16-2010, 03:56 PM

cc: from innovate forum

Originally posted by SprungSonde

INNOVATE brings new Products to the Market.
Most of time the successors are Improvements, but unfortunately only theoretical on paper not in the real live because of Hardware and Software flaws.
The LM-1 was INNOVATE's first try in Direct Digital (DD). (Heater-Power is something that can be improved)
The LMA-2 belonging to the LM-1 was not engineered to have differential analog inputs.
For correct RPM measurements an Audio alignment file was needed. (So differential In's and independent RPM measurements is an improvement)
Theoretical the LMA-3 have all this goods, that the LMA-2 have not, and some more features. But the LMA-3 CAD and the selecting of the PCB-Parts is an big Problem that INNOVATE is not able to Fix so seems some Units work some not or the Costumer use not all External-Input's.
As I have modded my LMA-3 in that way that it work for Frequency Measurements (12V Signals VSS) I have seen some Parts (Plural) are wrong assembled into my LMA-3.
I have informed INNOVATE what I have found.
How INNOVATE have to fix her Mass Production is something the have to find out by her Engineers.
The LC-1 is an DD Unit that is Theoretical an improvement over the LM-1 DD Part. (faster, more Heater Power, slim better to install permanent)
BUT
After I have fixed my LMA-3 I was nosy and have cut one LC-1 to open it; Long Story ... make it short:
I have fixed my two different E8's.
For me, the root case for not long working LC-1 (new LSU needed) and some E8's is also selection of wrong PCB Parts and maybe possible an Voltage hight problem. (not following the BOSCH Spec's)
Sure I have informed INNOVATE Month ago (all four E-Mail addresses I have) what is wrong assembled into the LC-1.
What do you think have INNOVATE answers to my Post till now?
So I think your Post is right if I read something like: "their head in the sand"
Maybe her main Businesses is now selling LSu's for "cheap".

**posplayr** · 10-16-2010, 03:57 PM

cc: from Innovate Forum

Originally posted by posplayr

I originally started this thread because of the lack of REVIEWS. Yes there are alot of reported problems on this forum, but often those can be explained away as integration problems which are the fault of the installed/user.
It appears to me that Innovate Management have actively pursued a policy to eliminate negative publicity from the internet. They seem to have been effective in that it is hard to find published reviews like the one I had posted earlier.
How do they do this? Apparently by widely distributing marketing material about Innovate products that vendors happily parrot on their retail websites, while at the same time suppressing (not sure how they are doing this except for flooding google searches with retailer hits instead of negative reviews).
This active suppression of public information on the web, clearly seems to have been effective and so you have to watch out for this from not only innovate but also other companies. We are reaching a time where companies can manipulate web search engine results so you no longer are receiving the unbiased results of searches (along with the usual crab we learn to filter).
Apparently the loss of business is not their priority; hiding the issues with their products is taking precedence. That means they don't want to know about problems.
Lets see how long this thread lasts

**posplayr** · 10-16-2010, 10:49 PM

New Innovate LM-2 .... RPM issue - EECTuning.org

http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=72231&sid=0290b18ed14b62d62a927b54f32562c8

Re: New Innovate LM-2 .... RPM issue

by Rex � Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:10 am

dsblk93gt wrote:I almost sold my LM1 to get a LM2 because it "looked" like a killer setup. BUT they did not full test the units it seems and ALOT of people are having RPM issues with no real help. The display is not as nice at it looked in the prototype either.

The LM2 has a built in RPM converter, OBD2 connection, memory card, etc. Alot more features but if it doesn't work right no good!

I'll guarantee you it does not work right and they have finally admitted it. The RPM function is hit and miss and without that data the rest is nonsense ... keep your LM-1 for now. The are refunding me my $$.

Here is their last email:Rex,

Unfortunately we do not have an immediate fix but we believe the problem to be high frequency coupling in the ground plane of the LM-2. We are going to setup a couple of test this week to see where the noise is coming in from and hopefully confirm our suspicions.

I do appreciate you taking the time to send me the logs and the scope screens.

Regards,
Felipe Saez
Innovate Technology
5 Jenner #100 - Irvine, CA 92618 - (949) 502-8407
Spec Racer Ford (SCCA) w/custom Roush ECC and a 1995 1.9L engine marketed in Mexico w/hemi head, full headers.

Rex Regular Posts: 73 Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:29 pm Location: Virginia

**posplayr** · 10-17-2010, 02:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattax
Welcome to the real world. While the internet is free in terms of access (mostly), it is not a free and public forum. Each website (including any forums, bulletin boards, etc) is paid for a hosted by an owner. Whom ever owns the site gets to set the rules for the site. Maintaining such a site is done in a way to benefit the owner. It would be bizarre if an owner found it in their interest to host threads dedicated to negative reviews of their own products.

Yes I understand that, but most manufacturers that were proactively interested in growing a business and developing satisfied customers would find the reviewer, figure out what the problem is and respond with solutions to the broader customer base which is probably experiencing the same problem. Deleting negative references is exactly opposite, it is hiding the truth. There would be far more to be gained if a solution was provided to the issues the reviewer had and the reviewer updated his product review in a more positive light. This obviously has not happened.

So in reference to the underlined statement above, I find it bizarre that a company with as wide of exposure that Innovate have is simply hiding problems which can only result in the end of their business. Looking at the number of registered users it is something like 25000, and at any one time there are usually only 2-4 people on line with a peak of 450 or so back in 2009. For all practical purposes this product is dead.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...archid=1250642

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattax
Keep the critiques and comments to specific technical issues and you'll find Innovate has been OK with leaving them up. Sometimes other customers have solutions. Letting customers help other customers can be a benefit to Innovate. Is this is a substitute for customer service? No. But nor is it supposed to be. There is contact information for customer service on the website. Some people don't see it or choose to use it, or at least try it first. .

Keeping the forum up is a win win for Innovate as well as the customers so they seem to have reopened it for now. As a practical matter the forum in many cases is the only solution to getting customer service.

I have called CS myself about 5-6 times. With the current flow of customers I have probably been lucky and have usually had my call answered. If the problem was simple, I got an answer but once I got into issues with RPM and SPEED signals I was basically lied to rather than an honest answer that we have a problem and are looking for a solution or that there is no solution.

So in reality the best source of solutions still has come back to the forum or the WWW in the form of other etch forum descriptions of installs and problems. Innovate and CS are hiding their own knowledge of issues and problems and lying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattax
Now beyond the fact that this forum is the manufacturers playpen is the question of reviews elsewhere. If you take a look at almost any magazine (including electronic ones) you'll notice that the articles and reviews pretty much always have a positive spin on the products used. Magazines stay in business chiefly through advertising. Advertising is both direct and indirect. Indirect advertising is when a company provides free product or services for an article. Yup. This is how they can afford to do all those tests. It's been true for years and there's very few exceptions.
.

Yep, nothing new there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattax
Finally, if you have been a hot rodder or racer (especially a racer) you've probably learned the hard way that there's a lot of junk being sold. Parts that don't fit right, poorly designed, inferior materiials, and ones that aren't even based on sound principles. Half the buyers don't know or the practice would stop. Most of the other half is probably doesn't want to admit they bought or installed a dud. That's human nature.
.

One of the primary benefits of the WWW is having an ability to search and find other peoples experience with products so that snake oil sales men in the form of these unscrupulous sellers don't repeatedly get away with what amounts to fraud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattax
Now the real problem with using dataloggers for engine tuning is that it requires a level of understanding far beyond the average hot rodder or racer. This is the type of support that is beyond probably any manufacturers capabilities - never mind a small one. The forum has proven to be a pretty good answer to that problem. Sure I wish they would do more, but I'm also greatful for what has been provided.

Yes I agree and have described the innovate products especially the LM-2 and LMA-3 as ambitious products (especially in the advertised flexibility of the inputs). Apparently the designers did not see it that way which is partially the same reason they are having so many problems.

Yes data loggers do require a higher level of sophistication than a more typical automotive product. In fact often the DL interfaces have to be engineered to solve the various issues of electrical interfaces, noise and power and grounding.

However I don't agree that that is THE REAL PROBLEM. The real problem is that Innovate has put products on the market that they are unable to support and unable to fix. The obfuscation of this fact is the only thing that keeps new people coming to this product family to suffer from the same design defect that so many others have already experienced.

Being and engineer and having had designed systems with similar flexibility for I/O , it is clear that Innovate lacks in three principle areas.

1.) Did not design the input interfaces to be robust relative to a set of expected interface types

2.) Inadequate test of the various combinations of things that they had designed the system to do.

3.) Did not adequately describe the requirements for signal conditioning to operate within the limitations of their I/O design.

The three factors above coupled with the complexity of installing a data logger with predominately non technical types probably yielded an unmanageable tech support problems and probably massive returns of product.

This is what Innovate are hiding from. This is the problem they can not fix.

Announcement

INNOVATE Motorsports LM-2 Firmware Upgrade 1.14

INNOVATE Motorsports LM-2 Firmware Upgrade 1.14

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