Battery Brands/Sizes

[mothra]

So for the 450 twins, what brand and size battery do you guys like?

[BassCliff]

Hi,

Your bike should take a standard YB12B-B2. I've had good luck with the Yuasa batteries but many here also like Big Crank and Odyssey. CLICK HERE to learn how to find out about all the forum member's favorite batteries.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

[mothra]

Yea that was kind of a lead in....

Lets just say that I have spent another $60 for a battery and am prepping it for more electrical troubleshooting.

Worked great for a day!

Whoo!

I am out of time and money for this kind of problem.

I give up with this bike! I completely give up. I can not find the problem.

[BassCliff]

Hi,

What kind of problem(s)? What are your symptoms? What maintenance have you performed? Let's see what we can do.

Do you have a battery tender? Motorcycle batteries usually don't like fast-charging high amperage chargers.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

[mothra]

Alright so this actually should probably be under electrical...

Anyhow so I prepped a new battery last night.

Came off of the charger
at 13.56V DC Stayed at that voltage for 30 minutes or so off of the charger.

Stuck it in the bike and got a draw so dropped to
13.44V DC
That was with no key, and the forks locked, bike off.. ect

Next I measured the current draw on ground, didn't tell me much, but I got a 58.1uA draw so a small draw but nothing major. Didn't preform the same test on the positive lead. (Measured battery ground only)

Let the bike sit for 20-30 minutes and then took a voltage measurement again, now it was at 13.29V DC

Started the bike and let it idle, now I was reading 14.12V DC at 1,000 RPM idle

then 30 seconds run time later I got 12.15V DC 1,000 RMP's idle

Reved it to 3,500 RPM's ang got a charge of 13.53V DC a drop from idle,
Then it stayed constant at 13.57V DC after idle and started creeping back up to 14V DC on idle.

Bike was then shut off and the voltage was at 13.35V DC. From about 4 minutes of run time and some cold starting after sitting a week.

Here is a video of another test run measuring straight off of the battery terminals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1G73pZSl-U&feature=youtu.be

LOL

History of troubleshooting:
-1st I boiled a battery dry, tested the original OEM regulator, and it was over charging at 14.5V DC
-Replaced the regulator, and it was back under control for a little while, continued work on engine area
-Few days later I was out riding and the lights started to fade, so I had to bump start the bike and ride it home.
-Tested the new regulator at the gas station where it was bump started, and it was cold (the new regulator unit), so after some testing I discovered that the stator blew out
-Replaced the stator with a new one from OldBike Barn, and fitted it with some additional work to the engine. Killed the new battery and it was warrantied right away.
-Brought the bike in and they were alerted to the stator, and so they went through, found that the regulator was bad, (my findings as well) they reached the same conclusion that the regulator blew out with the stator failing
-Replaced the regulator again with a new one, and was working for a little while while I continued to work some more on the engine area.
-Got the bike back and rode it around and then the battery died, so I brought it back in because I had gone through and could not find a fault with any of the wiring. Had cleaned contacts had some friends go over it and tried some stuff, but none of us could find a problem. Tried different grounding methods, had a friend and an elect eng look it over. The reg/rec was again faulty. Could not find a "problem" with any of the wiring.
-Shop went though it for a long time and found a short, and several items that they cleaned up, bike worked great for a bit
-Tested it myself for 2 rides, both the regulator was preforming within spec, and the battery seamed good.
-Next battery died, and could not charge it back up after a week of sitting.
-Prepped a new battery and now I am back here at

It has over charged, undercharged, drained, killed and over charged again.
So far I have spent $200 in regulators shop replaced one regulator actually even though it was not warrantied while trying to help, $15 in bullet connectors and contact cleaner, $16 on new wiring $5 in bulbs, plus a $100 stator.

The wiring is pretty cleaned up. Well I have picked it over some probing and prodding.

Here is a pic


I tried to measure the stator output, I discovered the connectors were "Warm" but both ends had new bullet connectors male and female ends on them. They were also all wrapped up in electrical tape. I forgot though that this cheepie meter doesn't measure AC correctly (yea yea its on the AC setting its broken) So I will have to grab anther meter to check the measurements out on that.

On the pus side my newly re-covered seat turned out nicely... If it would just quit killing batteries then it would be a really nice bike!

Oh... I also found an oil leak but that's another thread I guess.

[mothra]

Sorry I forgot to answer your question...
The battery tender and charger I have is a motorcycle battery tender charger and it is rated for a max of 2 amp hour charge a rate averaging 1.5amp hours with a pulse charge and battery condition sequence. It is very gentile on motorcycle batteries.

[BassCliff]

Hi,

OK, it sounds like you have the right battery charger. I was afraid that you may have cooked your battery with a charger that's too big.

Have you gone through the Stator Papers? Here's some links that will help you.

Stator Papers
Stator Test

Stator Replacement

Regulator/Rectifier Replacement

Use this diagram to connect the stator directly to the r/r unit. Ground the r/r unit directly to the negative battery terminal.



One difference I notice on your r/r unit, it looks similar to a 5-wire OEM unit so you will disregard the connection of the "sense" wire to the brake light switch. But I would suggest buying a more robust r/r unit. See the list of compatible units on my website in the electrical section.

Check and clean every electrical connection and ground on the entire bike. Replace whatever connectors are necessary. There should be no drain on your battery once the key is turned off. You would do well to pick up a decent digital multimeter. It doesn't have to be expensive, but you do need to read AC voltage when testing the stator.

Your story almost sounds like you have been replacing the stator and r/r separately and one has been blowing up the other. But before you go spending money on more parts, thoroughly test what you have. You'll find extra supplemental material in the electrical section of my little website, a couple of articles by Mr. posplayr (GS Charging System Health, Quick Test, etc), guides and tips for fusebox cleanup, wiring harness repair, etc.

The wiring I see in the picture looks pretty good. Make sure the r/r is grounded directly to the negative battery terminal. Remove the tank and seat to check and clean all of the electrical connections and grounds from the headlight bucket to the tail light. You never know what you might find. Keep us informed of your test results.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

[1_v8_merc]

There must be a bad ground or bad connection somewhere!
(unless you have bad luck and One unit blew out the other, back and forth)

Most mechanics won't bother looking past what's Immediately Visible, and they'll call it a day, lol
I think Mostly All GS bikes have a majority of the wiring connectors Inside the headlight bucket, so take a look.

Also, don't forget to look back by the taillight also, there are many connectors there.

I would just relax, and slowly dig all over that bike.
Because it's usually the wire you CANT see easily or the connection you ASSUME is fine! haha I know that from personal experience.

[verde]

Stuck it in the bike and got a draw so dropped to
13.44V DC
That was with no key, and the forks locked, bike off.. ect

It sounds like you've got a good idea of what to look for, so forgive me but I'd rather cover this just in case: Did you try it just in the off position, not locked? If there is a "park" position on your ignition switch maybe the tail light is still on. I know two people who have killed batteries this way.

Eliminating the ignition switch, there should be only a few wires that could possibly be hot without the ignition switch on. That won't be hard to track down once you get your charging system sorted.

[BassCliff]

Hi,

Did you try it just in the off position, not locked? If there is a "park" position on your ignition switch maybe the tail light is still on. I know two people who have killed batteries this way.

Good call, I didn't think of this. The "Park" position on the ignition switch is usually all the way to the right. It locks the forks and leaves the tail light on. Turn the ignition all the way to the left to lock the forks and turn off everything.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

[verde]

Good call, I didn't think of this. The "Park" position on the ignition switch is usually all the way to the right. It locks the forks and leaves the tail light on. Turn the ignition all the way to the left to lock the forks and turn off everything.

The two people I know who did it were on honda's. Locked-off was all the way counter clockwise(changing to this terminology but I believe this is "left") and locked-park was almost all the way counter clockwise. Pretty easy to miss which one it clicked into if you're in a hurry to lock the steering and get somewhere. I think my 8 valve 750's were like this as well, but the ignition switches didn't hang around for long.

[mothra]

I fixed the electrical problem

All joking aside…
I can't say that I have used "park" on accident or otherwise. The park position requires some effort to get it over to the part position. I always remove the key after turning it left only. It’s just engraved into my head at this point after my first car, so.

It pulled about 1.5 volts out of the battery while sitting for 4 days, which is new because it was not doing this a few weeks ago.

I have a good positive terminal and fuse as they were replaced during previous troubleshooting (you can see it in the pic the shiny new red wire).

That is an OEM 5 wire r/r unit. It was one that held up the longest, after replacing a few. I would say that it’s not a "bad" unit. But none of them have been "robust". This one is wired directly to ground however. The sense wire is hooked to the rear brake light.

There are also no "floating" ground connections with excessive resistance between them anymore. I did go through the connectors a few times once when I installed new turn signals, and another time just recently to double check everything. The shop did too, they replaced some wires here and there, and added a few new connectors on in various places, (not just visible and had it squared away when I got it back). Worked for a little while but its back to being special….

I did end up replacing the stator and r/r unit at the same time when the stator blew. I did make sure that the stator was functional but then the old faulty r/r was used just enough to determine that it was faulty and needed replacement. I think that the stator is still fine, but I will have to check it out with a better meter which I have actually remembered to bring home.

I will test out some of the components as well. I went back through and about 90% of the connectors are brand new, the other ones cleaned up really well and were not in any way causing problems. Grounds look fine, there is no resistance between the ground points anywhere, and they are making good contact between all of frame grounds and such. I’d feel pretty good about placing bets that there is not a "connector" issue at this point. I will take pics as proof if you want but the connectors are thoroughly checked over. I have made zero assumptions that any of them are fien and have checked them off. I did check inside the light, the rear light connectors, the ignition points, and the r/r area connectors again. The stator connectors are new but they were hot! Might look to upgrade those connectors with something that would handle the current better. Other connectors about 70% of them were replaced, the others had no resistance and continuous continuity. Could not track down the current draw from the battery, but I got cold and went inside for the day. Also there is a new rear tail light harness run under the fender looks like they replaced that too.

Also I could not kick the bike over as the "side stand" switch would not turn off. But the switch was fine (by kickstand), and shorting the connectors on it still would not allow the bike to start. I then checked the connectors on that entire circuit and found nothing, and then I jiggled the harness and it fired right on up. HUMMM.... Will also have to test the ignition switch and starter button to ensure that they are working ok as well.

I can't say that I suspect a faulty connector anywhere; actually thinking it’s time to pull the main wiring harness and re-wire it. Sounds like it’s got a short or open or something. It’s been extra snowy here but I may be lucky enough to have some time tomorrow or Sunday to take a look at it further. I think this because I have messed with it several times and have not had an issue, but sure enough a couple of days later your right back to square one with dead components. This problem seems to transcend beyond faulty connectors.

[Nessism]

One of the most important things to do with the charging system is bypass the factory wiring. Verify your stator is good by checking AC voltage per the Stator Papers check.

If the stator is good, wire the stator wires directly into your R/R unit. Do not plug the stator into the factory wiring or you can have problems.

For the R/R output, take the negative directly to the battery or split it and go to the battery with one leg and the frame with another. Do not ground to the battery box or similar like Suzuki often did.

Last thing is power output from the R/R. You can feed the power into the factory fuse box, or just go straight to the battery with an inline 15A fuse. I'm inclined to recommend you try both methods and then choose the method that gives you the most voltage at 4000 rpm.

Your battery should charge at roughly 14.5 volts @ 4000 rpm. I wouldn't worry about the no load battery voltage changing as the battery sits after a shut down. This value will drop due to the surface charge condition on the battery. The important thing is the charging system voltage when reving up the engine.

Last thing, find Matchless's R/R thread and then pick out a nice OE type R/R and then go hunt on ebay as needed. I recommend the FET type. These are the best quality units available other than spending big money on a Series type. A used FET is a much safer bet than some overpriced Chinese R/R junk.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/06-FOREMAN-TRX500FM-TRX-500-FM-4X4-VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-6-/110819394075?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item19cd59c21b#ht_3041wt_952

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2005-05-honda-foreman-trx500-trx-500-voltage-regulator-rectifier-214-/130627397331?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item1e69ffe6d3#ht_511wt_952

[BassCliff]

Hi,

It sounds like you are being very thorough and diligent. I'm sure your getting close to a solution.

You state that you have an OEM 5 wire r/r unit and the sense wire is connected to the rear brake switch. Please note that 5 wire r/r units do not have a sense wire. Of the 5 wires, 3 connect directly to the stator, one connects to ground (battery negative), and one is the voltage output (to battery positive). In my previous post with the diagram I mention disregarding the "sense" wire as your r/r doesn't have one.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

[mothra]

Thanks Everyone for your tips!!!!

These past few weekends have been full so I have not had time to get over and work on it. Sadly, my garage where the bike is stored while I work on it has been sold (Don't you hate it when that happens...) I live in an apartment right now so I don't own a garage, which is a huge pain. I have always had a garage to work on things. I was bumming the garage but the house it belonged to sold...

So I will have to find a new garage for the bike while I continue to work on it. Oh well It dosn't have to move for another 3 weeks. Plenty of time to round up a spot to keep it.

I have had 3 people tell me that its a write off and I should sell it!!!! I am not selling my bike! Its actually one of the few things that is 100% mine. I love this bike so much there is no way that I would sell it. It hardly costs me anything to keep it, and its fun to work on, I have had one big learning curve, and who cares its winter time down here... Something to do.... If anything its a good excuse to keep buying more tools. Ok well it has costs some money to work on it but I mean its cheaper then my other hobby.

Anyhow I have some wire spools and connectors coming, and have gathered up some wire strippers, snips and a nicer crimping tool. I discovered that after 10 years my old heat gun didn't work, and so I picked up a new one. Now why a 25 year old had a heat gun from the age of 15....

Oh yea that's when I had a SAAB! LOL now I remember why I had it. HAHAHA

One of the most important things to do with the charging system is bypass the factory wiring. Verify your stator is good by checking AC voltage per the Stator Papers check.

If the stator is good, wire the stator wires directly into your R/R unit. Do not plug the stator into the factory wiring or you can have problems.

The stator tests good, but I may put in a fresh one after my re-wiring job here and not take any chances with it.

The stator has been routed directly into the r/r unit currently, it is not going through the factory wiring. So at least that's OK.

You state that you have an OEM 5 wire r/r unit and the sense wire is connected to the rear brake switch. Please note that 5 wire r/r units do not have a sense wire. Of the 5 wires, 3 connect directly to the stator, one connects to ground (battery negative), and one is the voltage output (to battery positive). In my previous post with the diagram I mention disregarding the "sense" wire as your r/r doesn't have one.

So I don't know why I was thinking "sense wire", but it turns out that that positive lead is not going to the "sense" but is wired up to the bikes "positive" wiring side, which goes everywhere but the positive terminal right away. LOL Having the computer nowhere near my bike I got sense stuck in my head. My bad. I CAN count, and should have known better. Humm...

For the R/R output, take the negative directly to the battery or split it and go to the battery with one leg and the frame with another. Do not ground to the battery box or similar like Suzuki often did.

I have the negative battery terminal grounded to the battery box, but the R/R unit's ground has been spliced onto a new eyelet connector on the battery terminal currently. Actually the negative battery box ground dead ends there. Should I remove it or keep it as is?

Your battery should charge at roughly 14.5 volts @ 4000 rpm. I wouldn't worry about the no load battery voltage changing as the battery sits after a shut down. This value will drop due to the surface charge condition on the battery. The important thing is the charging system voltage when reving up the engine.

I can say that none of these conditions are the case.
Currently I will start to over charge on idle, drain running a load on the engine, and discharge within 5 days having the bike off. Do you get more than 5 days of charge off your battery with the bike "sitting"? I sure don't right now. IE a fresh battery will drain unused in the bike at 60 deg F in under 5 days. You will not be able to start the bike up.

Its not the connectors... Its not, they are all fine, every one of them. I'd wager an arm on that. I have double tripped checked them, they are all so new and so shiny and so non restive. I found them all, I looked them all over, I checked them with a meter, and banged my head against the cement floor several times and checked them again.

Last thing, find Matchless's R/R thread and then pick out a nice OE type R/R and then go hunt on ebay as needed. I recommend the FET type. These are the best quality units available other than spending big money on a Series type. A used FET is a much safer bet than some overpriced Chinese R/R junk.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/06-FOREMAN-T...#ht_3041wt_952

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2005-05-hond...3#ht_511wt_952

Oh man, Awesome, I wish I had noticed these earlier. Well at least I can rebuild the electrical system and not worry about the $100 r/r part that I keep frying. Watch, my first used $30 ebay r/r will work for 5 years... (Hopefully)

Who knows when tearing out the factory harness, maybe I will find something
Tomorrow... The tear down begins on the old electrical system...