Budget AFR/EGO Setup

[posplayr]

Really? I would take it out but the kit didnt come with the plug
I did look at the innovate forums but they are about as useful as **** on a bull, or so it seems.
Nowhere can I find what amount of power the db/lc1 setup uses. Seems like it drains my battery so I unplugged it.

see attached from LM-2 manual page 12

[gearhead13]

The problem is our bikes are too old to use the fancy stuff. What Jim has is the Cadillac for our bikes.
Using just AFR data takes a lot of practice and iterations. You have to be able to read where you started your run and where you end it, then figure out which slice of data you really care about.
You still have to smooth the data to make sense of it.

Ok, I have a couple saved files, one of them I cant figure out, can you take a look at them?
I must have missed that warning or forgot, I just got ****ed at my bike not starting and unplugged it. I dont know if the gauge is draining my battery but im sure it doesnt help
If it stated the power usage somewhere I would have a better idea.

[koolaid_kid]

Ok, I have a couple saved files, one of them I cant figure out, can you take a look at them?
I must have missed that warning or forgot, I just got ****ed at my bike not starting and unplugged it. I dont know if the gauge is draining my battery but im sure it doesnt help
If it stated the power usage somewhere I would have a better idea.

I can look at the data, but there is a slight problem. I would need to know what was going on afa the engine. When I make a run on the bike, I know what I did and check the data immediately, so I am able to tell why the AFR changed.
I'll PM you an email address you can send it to.

[pete]

The more I think about this the more I think I'd be better off holding off until I can afford an LM-2. I can do the cheaper ones, but the logging is the issue and I'd have to keep an eye on it at all times and remember where the throttle was at that time. Tricky!

At least with the LM-2 it shouldn't be hard to get the coil to trigger the RPM counter like I did with the Acewell gauge and I can log it all and that will help.

I had a look on eBay and throttle position sensors are a dime a dozen, but whether I can find one I can adapt to the Mikuni's is a different story... but logging that as well would make it all easy to analyse afterwards.

There's now an LM-2 basic kit which is $349, although I'd need to add the analog I/O cable for the RPM pickup which is another $33, but that's all a whole lot cheaper than the single channel LM-2 at $479 which has a bunch of stuff I don't really need. A Secure SD card would be the only other requirement but they're cheap as dirt.

[pete]

Here is a picture of the sniffer. I patterned it after another design I found in a review of the LM-2. I used a section of black steel pipe, and welded ends on for the brass fittings as well as the bung to mount the O2 sensor.

The idea is to get good flow through the pipe so that there is no lag in response of the sensor. The steel pipe is basically straight through using the thin 1/4" copper tubing that is about 2-3 foot long (just beyond the gap in the collector/mid pipe. )

The rubber tubing gets hot and more copper can be substituted. The length of rubber tubing is to avoid cold air from coming back into the sensor and distorting the readings that way.

Jim, looking closer at this... is the rubber tubing really necessary? I understand what you're saying, but while you're on the move what's the chance of cold air coming in compared to the exhaust gases going out? I would think the chances of that would be pretty slim wouldn't it? Or was this a situational thing at the time you did it?

Basically I can't use the Innovate clamp on my pipe as it has a reverse megaphone on the end, so I'd need to make something up. I'm thinking a simple length of galvanised steel pipe (easy to get hold of) with a bung welded in stuffed as far down the pipe as I can get it would do the trick, along the lines of what you've done there.

[koolaid_kid]

Ok, I have a couple saved files, one of them I cant figure out, can you take a look at them?
I must have missed that warning or forgot, I just got ****ed at my bike not starting and unplugged it. I dont know if the gauge is draining my battery but im sure it doesnt help
If it stated the power usage somewhere I would have a better idea.

Got your file, it is in some proprietary format. I need a comma delimited file. Your data capture app should be able to save it as one. Once you do that, send it to me again.

[gearhead13]

Got your file, it is in some proprietary format. I need a comma delimited file. Your data capture app should be able to save it as one. Once you do that, send it to me again.

Do you not have the innovate logworks software? Its a quick download:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support.php

[gearhead13]

I can change the file into a .csv is that the format you need?

[pete]

This is getting scary because I'm letting my brain run wild now

There are heaps of these el-cheapo TPS' on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Throttle-Position-Sensor-TPS-Honda-Civic-CRX-CRV-Prelude-/140759009376?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20c5e40860

I'm not sure how well I can explain what I'm thinking, but a piece of PVC pipe with cutouts to match the lugs on there would be glued onto some sort of spool or disk with the fishing wire attached, and then that can simply hook onto the end of the throttle actuator to try and ensure the response of the TPS is still linear.

At that price it's worth a try anyway right? Just a matter of trial and error and probably buying 2 or 3 in case they get busted...

It's going to be a few months before I'll have any chance of a budget to get an LM-2 so there's plenty of time to nut this stuff out in advance...

[posplayr]

This is getting scary because I'm letting my brain run wild now

There are heaps of these el-cheapo TPS' on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Throttle-Position-Sensor-TPS-Honda-Civic-CRX-CRV-Prelude-/140759009376?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20c5e40860

I'm not sure how well I can explain what I'm thinking, but a piece of PVC pipe with cutouts to match the lugs on there would be glued onto some sort of spool or disk with the fishing wire attached, and then that can simply hook onto the end of the throttle actuator to try and ensure the response of the TPS is still linear.

At that price it's worth a try anyway right? Just a matter of trial and error and probably buying 2 or 3 in case they get busted...

It's going to be a few months before I'll have any chance of a budget to get an LM-2 so there's plenty of time to nut this stuff out in advance...

If you are interested in using a WB02 sensor, the best thing I could suggest is that do your measurements on a very long (1 mile) 6% uphill which is what I found worked very well of checking jetting. No too many of those around so a dyno would also work.

I did a series of pulls at 1/4 , 1/2 , 3/4 and WOT in each of 3,4 and 5th gear.
You need to get to get slowly past redline to check the jetting. For my ED that was just about right in 4th gear (at 110).

(maybe not WOT in 5th)

What you encounter is that when the bike is reving real fast the dynamics of the CV float moving up and down causes AFR changes and it is difficult to get a reading.

You need to keep the RPM rising more slowly as you hold the throttle position fixed steady. I put a piece of tape with marks at the indicated test position. Since I have speed and RPM I can always tell where I am.

The steep hill represents a load that keeps you from reving too fast in the upper gears. Although you start going pretty fast regardless. You need to slowly have RPM increase past redline. On my bike I can do that in 4th gear.

[posplayr]

Jim, looking closer at this... is the rubber tubing really necessary? I understand what you're saying, but while you're on the move what's the chance of cold air coming in compared to the exhaust gases going out? I would think the chances of that would be pretty slim wouldn't it? Or was this a situational thing at the time you did it?

Basically I can't use the Innovate clamp on my pipe as it has a reverse megaphone on the end, so I'd need to make something up. I'm thinking a simple length of galvanised steel pipe (easy to get hold of) with a bung welded in stuffed as far down the pipe as I can get it would do the trick, along the lines of what you've done there.

You can't just but the bung right at the end of the pipe, it needs to have at least some distance to keep the fresh air away; If you put the bug up near the collector then you have 2-3 feet of extra distance. So adding 2-3 foot of hose is trying to replicate that. Exactly how far is required that is difficult to determine (without a dyno). Adding a little extra hose caused little problem. I would rather do that than risk having fresh air come back into the O2 sensor and corrupt the measurements.

You are always in danger of a Leo's attention when doing these types of measurements ; best to keep them to a minimum.

[pete]

If you are interested in using a WB02 sensor, the best thing I could suggest is that do your measurements on a very long (1 mile) 6% uphill which is what I found worked very well of checking jetting. No too many of those around so a dyno would also work.

I did a series of pulls at 1/4 , 1/2 , 3/4 and WOT in each of 3,4 and 5th gear.
You need to get to get slowly past redline to check the jetting. For my ED that was just about right in 4th gear (at 110).

(maybe not WOT in 5th)

What you encounter is that when the bike is reving real fast the dynamics of the CV float moving up and down causes AFR changes and it is difficult to get a reading.

You need to keep the RPM rising more slowly as you hold the throttle position fixed steady. I put a piece of tape with marks at the indicated test position. Since I have speed and RPM I can always tell where I am.

The steep hill represents a load that keeps you from reving too fast in the upper gears. Although you start going pretty fast regardless. You need to slowly have RPM increase past redline. On my bike I can do that in 4th gear.

Ok, there are some places around here that potentially could work, although the speed limit is possibly a little bit of a hinderance to WOT runs...

There are a couple of decent hills on the way to/from work also, so if I can record while commuting I might be able to make use of that time.

You can't just but the bung right at the end of the pipe, it needs to have at least some distance to keep the fresh air away; If you put the bug up near the collector then you have 2-3 feet of extra distance. So adding 2-3 foot of hose is trying to replicate that. Exactly how far is required that is difficult to determine (without a dyno). Adding a little extra hose caused little problem. I would rather do that than risk having fresh air come back into the O2 sensor and corrupt the measurements.

You are always in danger of a Leo's attention when doing these types of measurements ; best to keep them to a minimum.

Firstly, you read my mind in regards to LEO's That's why the query on the hose...

I understand what you're saying there...

However, I looked closely at the Innovate exhaust clamp, and it appears to have an entrance hole and pipe around 6" long, and there's what appears to be a smaller diameter exit hole right near the entrance. The rest of the pipe appears to be sealed with the wideband sensor screwing in at the end of the closed off pipe.

I wonder if I could simply replicate this with some pipe and attach that to my exhaust bracket?

Obviously Innovate expect that to work for the LM-2 given they make/sell it, so it might be worth an email to them to inquire about dimensions and so forth given I can't use their clamp due to the reverse megaphone.

I'm just thinking that may be a little more unobtrusive than a 3' length of rubber hose coiled around the rear there...

[koolaid_kid]

However, I looked closely at the Innovate exhaust clamp, and it appears to have an entrance hole and pipe around 6" long, and there's what appears to be a smaller diameter exit hole right near the entrance. The rest of the pipe appears to be sealed with the wideband sensor screwing in at the end of the closed off pipe.

I wonder if I could simply replicate this with some pipe and attach that to my exhaust bracket?

Obviously Innovate expect that to work for the LM-2 given they make/sell it, so it might be worth an email to them to inquire about dimensions and so forth given I can't use their clamp due to the reverse megaphone.

I'm just thinking that may be a little more unobtrusive than a 3' length of rubber hose coiled around the rear there...

Pete, I might know where one is if you need measurements. No need to contact Innovate unless you are driven to it. I can post them in this thread, along with pics, if you just tell me what you want.
And yes, the exhaust makes a "U" and exits near where it enters. They claim this location creates a scavenging effect, which they call a venturi effect.

[posplayr]

Ok, there are some places around here that potentially could work, although the speed limit is possibly a little bit of a hinderance to WOT runs...

There are a couple of decent hills on the way to/from work also, so if I can record while commuting I might be able to make use of that time.



Firstly, you read my mind in regards to LEO's That's why the query on the hose...

I understand what you're saying there...

However, I looked closely at the Innovate exhaust clamp, and it appears to have an entrance hole and pipe around 6" long, and there's what appears to be a smaller diameter exit hole right near the entrance. The rest of the pipe appears to be sealed with the wideband sensor screwing in at the end of the closed off pipe.

I wonder if I could simply replicate this with some pipe and attach that to my exhaust bracket?

Obviously Innovate expect that to work for the LM-2 given they make/sell it, so it might be worth an email to them to inquire about dimensions and so forth given I can't use their clamp due to the reverse megaphone.

I'm just thinking that may be a little more unobtrusive than a 3' length of rubber hose coiled around the rear there...

This is what I used to do my sniffer.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/innovate_lm1_intro.htm

Based on the dimensions of the innovate device, it is likely you dont need all of that hose, but I did not have one to make any measurements. I opted to not buy one because with my Yoshi 4:2:1 there is not a real tight seal between mid pipe and collector. I wanted to sniff in front of that junction to avoid potential airleaks corrupting the AFR measurements.

In fact if you were so inclined you could sniff individual pipes, but given the many variables it seems hardly nessesary. At most you would want to do in richen up the two inner cylinders by one step like on the GS1150 did.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/diy_exhaust_probe.htm

Note that the depending upon the ratio of the volume in the pipe with the bung and the cross sectional area of the entrance pipe there will be a averaging effect (i.e. acts as an accumulator). I wanted to minimize this so I wanted the section of pipe to be short and nearly the same size as the sniffer copper pipe.

This all might just be being overly cautious with the sniffer. I simply did not want anything to distort the already difficult measurements to make.

I should mention that after I found the right technique/AFR combinations, the bike got dialed in and ran about 10% better pulling the front wheel of the ground much easier in 2nd gear on roll on wheelies. So I think it is worth the effort for a more moderately modified bike. I was able to find out that the 4:2:1 really is different to the 4:1 as far as jetting and mid range power.

[pete]

Pete, I might know where one is if you need measurements. No need to contact Innovate unless you are driven to it. I can post them in this thread, along with pics, if you just tell me what you want.
And yes, the exhaust makes a "U" and exits near where it enters. They claim this location creates a scavenging effect, which they call a venturi effect.

Mate that would be awesome if you could!

I'm guessing the critical stuff would be the inside diameter of the pipe, length, and how the U shape goes. Probably also where the thread for the sensor ends in relation to the inside of the pipe.

Let me know if that doesn't make sense...