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    The Devil's Workshop

    I think my idle is possessed by Satan.

    Rebuilt the carbs again after installing a fresh set of intake boots, because one was cracked.

    With fresh intake boots, and newly oiled pods, my idle is all over the place.

    I could deal with a hanging idle - find the air leak or lean issue.

    I could deal with a sagging idle - adjust for richness.

    This idle is nutso.

    Once the bike warms up, I can set the idle for about 1100 as normal. It will blip and return like it should. After awhile, the idle will do one of two things, neither with any regularity.

    First, it will hang. Not a slow return hang. Instead, a blip to 2,000-2,500 will sit at that speed until I dial back the idle screw.

    At other stops, it will sag and try to bog out. Blipping brings it back, but it will wind back down to <1,000 RPM unless I turn the screw in a bit. At the next stop, the idle will settle in at 2,000 because the screw is too far in, so I have dial it back out to level the idle.

    Gets weirder. Sometimes, a blip will solve the idle in either direction. Blipping to salvage a sagging idle is obvious. During some stops, however, when the idle tries to stay at 2,500, a quick blip with rev it up and then drop it right back to a good idle.

    I have gone over everything at least twice. The plugs are a mix of decent and rich. 1 and 4 were sooty, but 2 and 3 were right on the money (which I have never seen in a plug yet). When I idle it in the garage, there is a sporadic clunking noise from the muffler/exhaust. Not quite a back fire, more muffled and thunky.

    The throttle cables are not snagged or catching. The throttle snaps back at all handlebar positions.

    I tried some WD40 to see if the slides were catching somewhere, but the slides and throttle never feel stiff or sticky.

    Fuel screws are about 3/4 - 7/8 turns out. The air screws are about 2 turns out, but highest idle is more impossible than usual, as I cannot get a stable idle >1,000 RPM, at least not one that I can trust not to bog out.

    I have synched the carbs several times, thinking that a false positive on the synch I did yesterday was masking a problem. The No. 2 slide was a bit out of step, but after I adjusted it with the carb tune, the idle still misbehaves.

    Another item, that may or may not relate to this. After riding for a while, I noticed the oil level seemed higher than I remembered. Paranoid about flooding carbs from before (all my testing shows that these are not flooding) I installed a new petcock today that I had set aside for my second tank.

    So the round up is:

    New intake boots, rings, etc.
    Fully cleaned carbs, fresh o-rings, etc.
    Valves are in spec (double checked them last week)
    New petcock.
    Float levels are at 23.5mm and a level check shows them settling about 1-2 mm below the bowl, right on the money.
    Fuel screws 3/4 out
    Pilot 15s

    What the Hell??

    #2
    Re-check your float measurements, check the float needles for a score ring around the tip. If you can see it, they're questionable. If you can feel it, they're trash.

    This has pods/pipe no?

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by TheCafeKid View Post
      Re-check your float measurements, check the float needles for a score ring around the tip. If you can see it, they're questionable. If you can feel it, they're trash.

      This has pods/pipe no?
      Pods and pipe. Spent a lot of time with the needles and seats to deal with the flooding. Each of them checked out. Will pull them again though.

      Just curious. How would scored needles throw the idle around like this?

      Comment


        #4
        I know you said the cable is not sticking, but I had the same problem with the same symptoms. Next time it hangs up, reach down where the cable connects to the carbs. and give it a push down and see if rpms drop. My wifes' 450 did the same thing and although it seemed as though throttle would snap back sometimes it wouldn't quite go back down all the way, wasn't but a tiny amount, but made big difference in rpms. Tried lubing cable and that helped for a while, finally replaced cable and had no problems since. terrylee

        Comment


          #5
          The VM carb rebuild on BassCliff's site states the float height as 24mm but the '78 750 service manual says 26mm. Gotta go with the service manual.
          -Mal

          "The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." - B. Banzai
          ___________

          78 GS750E

          Comment


            #6
            On my 1000 I was having the same problem.

            I found the problem to be 2 things.

            My cable had got twisted where it hooked to the throttle grip. Presumably when I had removed the carbs and twisted the throttle when it wasn't hooked to the carb linkage.

            Also, I knew the cable was routed properly however the push cable didn't seem to be returning the slides fully closed. A little cable lube and it worked like new and never had another problem.

            Nic
            Last edited by niclpnut; 05-26-2012, 10:39 PM.
            83 GS1100ES rebuild:

            http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...d.php?t=170032

            Budget GSXR Conversion:

            http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...d.php?t=200563

            New to me bike: 2008 B-KING

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by MisterCinders View Post
              Pods and pipe. Spent a lot of time with the needles and seats to deal with the flooding. Each of them checked out. Will pull them again though.

              Just curious. How would scored needles throw the idle around like this?
              Scored float needles won't seal.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by TheCafeKid View Post
                Scored float needles won't seal.
                I get that, but my bowls aren't leaking or overflowing. They were before because I had some bad washers and a flat was catching on a bowl gasket. So I have totally crawled through my needles and sets to root that out.

                The oil I changed seemed pretty clean and had no gas smell, but just in case that petcock was weeping any fuel, I swapped it for a new one.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Well, another thing I noticed in your description: fuel screws 3/4 turn out. Spec is 7/8..call it one turn. If you were using a bigger pilot, you might need to back them off some, but you're using stock, and you've also opened up the air screw more than stock...highest idle method is difficult to hear on the VM carbs if you notice it at all. This is why the Morgan Carb-Tune is so handy for the VMs. You can See the mix. With pods and pipe you might try opening the fuel screw to one, or maybe even 1.25, with the air screw where it's at at two..set the fuel screw and leave it and tune the pilot circuit by adjusting the air screw.
                  Also, you synced with gauges or just a bench sync?

                  Aside from these things, if you're sure your float levels are spot on, and timing is good, and you've no air leaks anywhere, (besides the orings on the boots, the boots themselves can crack and or pull away from the steel flange they're attached to and leak there) perhaps you should check your coils? Battery getting good juice to them? Etc...Without having the bike here first hand, the only thing *I* can suggest is checking things I've tripped on in my own experiences...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by MisterCinders View Post
                    I get that, but my bowls aren't leaking or overflowing. They were before because I had some bad washers and a flat was catching on a bowl gasket. So I have totally crawled through my needles and sets to root that out.

                    The oil I changed seemed pretty clean and had no gas smell, but just in case that petcock was weeping any fuel, I swapped it for a new one.
                    Check them anyway. They may not leak enough to overflow, and shouldn't provided your petcock is good when the bike is off, but if they leak a lil bit, it'd be like a toilet that never quite quits running. It's not constantly running full bore, but you can hear that little trickle..and every now and then it kicks on to re-fill the tank...get what I'm saying?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Oh! Just thought of something;
                      If you've replaced the float valves with new, check them against the old for length. I've found that the replacement ones you most often get from Z1 or the like are the length for CV carbs. VM valves are a couple mm or so shorter. I
                      Can't help but think this throws off the float measurement.. If you don't have the old ones, I can measure some for you and take some pics to show you what I mean tomorrow evening when I get home from work...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I checked the needles per Kid's advice. One might have some scoring, but it was hard to tell. Swapped it out anyway.

                        Fine tuned the floats to about 24mm. The specs for float height on VM26 are all over the place. Mikuni says they should 17mm Service Manual says 25mm or so. I've had them higher, but it ran lean as crap. When I checked the floats this time, 1 and 4 were a touch lower than 2 and 3, so that might explain the plugs. I leveled them all at 24mm, which is where 2 and 3 were set.

                        I think the villain is the slides though. Before tearing them down, I tested one of the theories ITT. When the idle did not drop, I could press on the slides and make it behave. So I have pulled the slides again. No. 1 had some slight residue that I cleaned off. It moved freely in the channel but felt just a hair stiffer than the others. All have been cleaned and lightly oiled with some 3-1 oil. Now they slide nicely with nothing but gravity. Will button it up and see if that does it.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by TheCafeKid View Post
                          Oh! Just thought of something;
                          If you've replaced the float valves with new, check them against the old for length. I've found that the replacement ones you most often get from Z1 or the like are the length for CV carbs. VM valves are a couple mm or so shorter. I
                          Can't help but think this throws off the float measurement.. If you don't have the old ones, I can measure some for you and take some pics to show you what I mean tomorrow evening when I get home from work...
                          Actually, I have run into the reverse problem where the odd short needle makes float setting harder. With less travel room, the float liked to stick in the carb body. Probably wouldn't stick in use, since it would fight gravity and fuel pressure, but I like my floats swing more.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by MisterCinders View Post
                            I checked the needles per Kid's advice. One might have some scoring, but it was hard to tell. Swapped it out anyway.

                            Fine tuned the floats to about 24mm. The specs for float height on VM26 are all over the place. Mikuni says they should 17mm Service Manual says 25mm or so. I've had them higher, but it ran lean as crap. When I checked the floats this time, 1 and 4 were a touch lower than 2 and 3, so that might explain the plugs. I leveled them all at 24mm, which is where 2 and 3 were set.

                            I think the villain is the slides though. Before tearing them down, I tested one of the theories ITT. When the idle did not drop, I could press on the slides and make it behave. So I have pulled the slides again. No. 1 had some slight residue that I cleaned off. It moved freely in the channel but felt just a hair stiffer than the others. All have been cleaned and lightly oiled with some 3-1 oil. Now they slide nicely with nothing but gravity. Will button it up and see if that does it.
                            I always run a brass bottle brush through the slide bores on the VMs after dipping. They weren't made out of the same material as the Cvs it seems, and dipping seems to leave a film of gooey crap (even after rinsing/washing) that'll make the slide stick a lil. And watch with pods if left sitting in the weather. If those slides corrode in the bore, they'll lock up tighter than a drum. I had a set do this and I tried everything from CLR boiling bath, heat, etc etc etc and couldn't get them to break free... A whole set of VMs with a DJ kit ruined

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by MisterCinders View Post
                              Fine tuned the floats to about 24mm. The specs for float height on VM26 are all over the place. Mikuni says they should 17mm Service Manual says 25mm or so.
                              Had my carbs off today and checked the float heights...........24mm DOH!

                              I set them after I dipped 'em as per the rebuild. Bikes been running just fine. I think I'll leave them at 24mm.
                              -Mal

                              "The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." - B. Banzai
                              ___________

                              78 GS750E

                              Comment

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