BS34SS questions for '80 GS450LT US

[GeorgioP_Ohio]

Hello All,

Thanks to many great posts here, I am almost finished in my restoration of my 1980 GS450LT.
I have been working on the BS34SS for a month or so.
I did a non-dip quick rebuild in late Fall 2012, in the 60'sF but bike idled erratically, and a month later (it got in the low 40'sF), -refused to start at all!
I am still using stock air box, different filter media, see below.
My carburetors are giving me troubles even before I can do a Berryman's dip.
Here is the situation....

Please take a look at my carburetors side view here:

I found out that the previous owner ( BTW..I owned this motorcycle for almost 20 years this year, got historic plates, but never did a full dip carb rebuild, though it did sit for 5 years, shame on me!) , The Previous owner apparently did not put back the washers under the main jets and the springs in the Air\Fuel Mixture pilot screws.
I removed one of the air\fuel mixture screws, the other one just spins as you turn it and is very close to the edge, see picture.
I need to get that out all the way before the dip, would something sticky on the end work?
Also - I see that my Haynes manual is saying that the aluminum cap in this picture has a oil seal underneath it! See picture.
I am wondering if I have to remove the cap, remove the oil seal before the Berryman's would destroy it in the soaking?

So here are my questions...

1. How would I get the other air\fuel mixture screw out the rest of the way since there is no spring behind it to push it out the remaining 1mm from the edge of the hole? (it spins and spins, one side is removed).
2. Where would I obtain replacement springs for the air\fuel mixture screw?
3. Same with the little brass washers (see Haynes picture above) that should be under my main jets? What would that do to performance, if I didn't install new ones?
4. See "CAP" above, - Do I have to remove this cap to remove the oil seal before soaking in Berryman's or is it metal ?
5. Is the recommended turns from seating the mixture screw 2.5 turns by default, then adjusted as needed later?
6. I could not find a replacement air filter (sponge), so I used a piece of that 15mm thick green urethane foam from JoAnn fabric in the meantime, oiled it wrung it out to be fairly dry. Will that work as a replacement filter?

By the way, I am not just some lazy guy that did not try first to look up all of these questions all over the carb forum first here without posting.

I have a Clymer and a Haynes for the GS450 and they sometimes give conflicting information for the US model - ie... pilot jet sizes..
I would appreciate any accurate help, as I am looking forward to restoring this GS450LT to it's full potential very soon.
--Planning Berryman's Dip, new carb O-Rings, intake O-Rings, and a carburetor sync after I can figure out these six questions.
Best Regards,

George

[BassCliff]

Greetings and Salutations!!

Hi Mr. GeorgioP_Ohio,

Here are a few guides that may help you:

GS450 Carb Rebuild Guide
(Mr. Flaming Chainsaws)


Mikuni BS(CV) Carburetor Rebuild Tutorial
(Mr. Nessism)
CV Carburetor Rebuild Guide
(Courtesy of GSR and John Bloemer)
(Click here to see the CV Carb Notes)

The first guide is specific to the GS450. The other two contain a lot of general information and tips that will also help you. Now here's the S.W.A.G.

If you are here you probably have a 30 year old motorcycle that needs about 20 years worth of maintenance. You'll find all kinds of helpful tips, procedures, manuals, diagrams, "how-to" guides, etc, in the links below. Let's get started.

Let me dump a TON of information on you and share some GS lovin'.

I just stopped by to welcome you to the forum in my own, special way.

If there's anything you'd like to know about the Suzuki GS model bikes, and most others actually, you've come to the right place. There's a lot of knowledge and experience here in the community. Come on in and let me say "HOoooowwwDY!"....

Here is your very own magical, mystical, mythical, mind-expanding "mega-welcome". Please take notice of the "Top 10 Common Issues", "Top 15 Tips For GS Happiness", the Carb Cleanup Series, and the Stator Papers. All of these tasks must be addressed in order to have a safe, reliable machine. This is what NOT to do: Top 10 Newbie Mistakes. Now let me roll out the welcome mat for you...



Please Click Here For Your Mega-Welcome, chock full of tips, suggestions, links to vendors, and other information. Then feel free to visit my little BikeCliff website where I've been collecting the wisdom of this generous community. Don't forget, we like pictures! Not you, your bike!

Thanks for joining us. Keep us informed.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

[GeorgioP_Ohio]

Thanks for the links.......

Hello BassCliff,

I have enjoyed reading your posts and over your site for the last few months.
The GS450 carb rebuild link that you posted , answers question #4, looks like others are leaving the cap on there and soaking in Berryman's.
(The little O-Ring that the Hayes manual says is beneath there must survive the Berryman's dip somehow.)

If anyone else can help me answer questions 1-3 and 5-6 below...., I would really appreciate the help !
Thanks,
George

[BentRod]

Question 1

I am going to assume you have already tried a variety of magnets, and that the screw is just a little bit stuck. Use a strip of sheet metal and mix up a dab of 5 minute epoxy. Use it to carefully glue the sheet metal strip to the head of the pilot screw (and to nothing else). Once the screw is out you can gently scrape or otherwise clean the head of the pilot screw. If it isn't stuck that bad, use a light glue, or may be try compressed air to push it out.

Question 2

Other than going to a wreckers and looking for a used spring.. http://www.mcmaster.com/#compression-springs/=l38vah
you already have one spring. If you have the tools to measure it up, you should be able to spec out a new one. you will also need the little washer that goes at the base.

Question 3

Can't really help you. I'm not sure if they are just spacers or if they have a function beyond just being a washer

Question 5

2.5 turns sounds about right, although it should say in your manual. It is pretty forgiving as far as carb adjustments go, and if your a quarter turn one way or the other your bike should still start.

Question 6

The foam you are using is pretty close to original and should do nicely, although it may be a little more restrictive than the original. If you get the bike up and running and feel that some RPM ranges do produce as much power as you think they should, I would revisit your filter. An engine at idle isn't going to suck in that much air.

[Gorminrider]

"2. Where would I obtain replacement springs for the air\fuel mixture screw?"

I used a ball-point pen spring with what so far seems to be a good result....

(Thank you to the GSR member who posted this tip recently!)

[GeorgioP_Ohio]

Thanks for the information.

Hello BentRod and Gorminrider.

Great! That helps a lot. I actually was able to remove the remaining air\fuel mix screw last night, it just fell out this time after another pre-dip cleaning! This body did have the spring on the mixture screw, the other side, it was missing.
I measured the spring that I have, it is 4mm in diameter and 8.1 mm long. Seems to be made from gold colored steel.
If I can find another spring for sale somewhere, and the little brass washers that go under the main jets, I will be close to being ready to dip and re-assemble.

--- When you say I'll need a new washer at the base, do you mean the O-ring that fits onto the mixture screw directly? Or something else?

I have taken ball-point pens apart before and cannibalized the spring for other uses like screen door latches, that might work too, might just need to cut it down to 8.1 mm and bend the end to match the original.

As I was reading this, I took apart a pen and measured the spring's diameter, and sure enough, it is 4mm, that is cool! I feel like Mad Max taking parts from other things to use on his motorcycle!
Now just hunting down the tiny brass washers that live under the main jets.
Thank you,

George

[Steve]

The carbs on your bike are arranged just a little different than most of the rest of the BS series. On the "normal" carbs (I don't know about yours), the main jet threads into the bottom of the needle jet. The hole in the carb body between the two jets can sometimes allow the main jet to slide through, but the washer under the main jet will prevent that. If your main jet threads into the needle jet, you must have the washer. If not, you will have to evaluate your own situation.

Nice to see you have it basically under control, but I will offer my answers to your questions:
1. How would I get the other air\fuel mixture screw out the rest of the way ...
Either try to blow it out with compressed air or lube it and tap it to see if it slides out. If not, a dab of quick glue.

2. Where would I obtain replacement springs for the air\fuel mixture screw?
A ball-point pen spring or just ask here on the forum, someone will likely send you one.

3. Same with the little brass washers (see Haynes picture above) that should be under my main jets? What would that do to performance, if I didn't install new ones?
Explained above. If you can't find one, let me know, I'll send you one.

4. See "CAP" above, - Do I have to remove this cap to remove the oil seal before soaking in Berryman's or is it metal ?
No, it is not necessary to remove the cap. Most of us will dip the carbs for up to 24 hours with no apparent damage to the seal.

5. Is the recommended turns from seating the mixture screw 2.5 turns by default, then adjusted as needed later?
The 450s might need a bit more. I usually start any carb on 3 full turns, then tune. The 450 might even need more than that, but 3 is a good place to start.

6. I could not find a replacement air filter (sponge), so I used a piece of that 15mm thick green urethane foam from JoAnn fabric in the meantime, oiled it wrung it out to be fairly dry. Will that work as a replacement filter?
Not knowing what type of foam that is, I can't say whether it would be too restrictive. Keep your eyes open, you might be able to find a K&N filter to put in your stock airbox.

.

[pete]

The only thing I have to add is that there is no brass washer under the main jet... no idea where Haynes gets that from unless it's the earlier 400/425 carbs maybe? (Haven't seen them)

Your carbs are identical to mine (80 - 82 are the same) and there is no brass washer under the main, but there is under the float valve.

I also confirmed this just now with the parts fiche at Alpha Sports.

This is now the third or fourth mistake I've found in the Haynes... the first two are torque values, one of which resulted in me stripping the the thread on a bolt hole in the crankcase during my rebuild...

If you want a proper manual I strongly suggest looking for eBay seller "eClassic Bike" out of New Zealand and spending the $30 or so on a factory reproduction manual, you won't regret it!

Keep the Haynes and Clymer handy though as they are good for some step by step stuff, but refer to the factory for accuracy.

[Gorminrider]

Pete? George?...the Haynes manual I have(Gs,GSX,79-85, 250,400,450) agrees very well with my 4valve per cyl GSX bike as to the carburetor.

My carbs do have a washer in the main jet assembly. You can see the very washer in post#1 picture, in the background.

But this 450 has a different carb than mine. My idle mix screw is on top, not the side as the top picture has it....and more.
I believe the Clymer likely covers these better than the Haynes does. ...given George has the same Haynes I do,

[pete]

Yep, according to the parts fiche on www.cmsnl.com, your '81 GSX400 (that's the designation for the 4 valvers here in Aus and in the UK), you have different carbs and a brass washer under the main jet.

So yep, you have different carbs than the 80 - 82 2 valve 450 motors

The big issue with both the Clymers and Haynes I've found is that they don't always clarify the differences between the models very well, so you end up thinking something for a 450 is relevant when it's actually for the 400 or 425 etc.

That's why I like my factory manual with all the addendums in it, I know every specific detail including the minor differences in the releases for different countries.

[GeorgioP_Ohio]

Need a new pilot jet, but 17.5 or 45?

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all of the help.
OK, so I understand that I do not need the little brass washers under the main jets.
Last issue - One of my pilot jets (they screw into the bowl) had a broken head, and I had to hand drill out the remains from the float bowl, since E-Z outs and lots of heat\penetrating oil did not work.

I have one of them for reference, but cannot read the tiny markings on it.
It looks very similar to this one I found.

The Haynes says that it is a # 17.5 Part # 09492-17005 and the Clymer says that it is a 45 pilot jet, again, for the 1980 GS450L.
There are no side holes, just the one center hole.

Which one should I choose? The 17.5 or 45? Would they have different flow rates?

If anyone has a good source for these, other than E-bay, I would like to know, or if anyone has a spare, - then I could send you a Self-addressed stamped envelope with a few bucks in it if you have an extra one of these in good condition.

Thank you,
George

[Gorminrider]

Which one should you choose?
You know it's not like MY bikes (81 gsx400) my jets all have holes on the sides.
IF I were a gambler, I'd gofor the Clymer. BUT I am not. knowledge is power.
Is it really a BS34SS?

A local bike shop may be your new best friend and help you.You have the security of knowing they will take the wrong part back and otherwise give you many useful tips. well worth the $. There are plenty of mail-order recommends here too. Z1enterprises and more that are specifically interested in your custom. avoid the dollar lost for a penny saved.
for now,
Go here:

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/bikecliff/images/carbspec_float_height.html

also on Bass-Cliff's the link:

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/cbsaunders/gs/gs450_carb_cleaning_guide.pdf

DO goto Bass-Cliff's site. Some of those links aren't YOUR carb but it's Homework!

[GeorgioP_Ohio]

Thanks, but no good parts dealers in my area....

Hello Gorminrider,

Yes , I tried local dealers, since this bike is 33 years old, they often cut off parts now after 1985 around here.
I have read the carb cleaning guide on BassCliff's site many times.
Yes, that is exactly my carb in all the pictures, the BS34SS.

Page 7 shows my pilot jet screwed into the bowl exactly.
I spent hours last week getting all the brass out of that hole without damaging the aluminum threads.
If anyone has any other sources please let me know. I think I looked at Z1 Enterprises, and they only had the ones with the side holes...
Thanks,
George

[pete]

Your pilot is the 17.5 and the closest Mikuni you will get is the VM22/210 which unfortunately has the bleed holes down the sides.

I tried some of these in 22.5 (up two sizes) due to my pods and pipe, but they were *way* too rich and it runs fine on the stock jets. What I can't really confirm is if the bleed holes make a difference or not when using the stock 17.5 size.

What I would do is order a new one from Suzuki.

I believe what happened is that Suzuki chose a carb and jet setup, then got Mikuni to make adjustments to make it suit their needs. This resulted in things like our pilot jets being different to what is available on the shelf from Mikuni... frustrating! I guess it was a way of making sure you had to go back to Suzuki for your parts etc.

The pilot jet part # is 09492-17005 and if you don't have a local dealer to get it from, the online ones used most often around here seem to be Power Sports Plus and PartShark. Boulevard Suzuki is good for prices but I think their parts sales have gone down hill a bit after the girl who did the parts left.

If you do end up going with the VM22/210 with the bleed holes, I'd get two 17.5's and replace your other stock one so they're identical. You may find them too rich and either have to wind the mixture screws in quite a lot or maybe even go down one size to the 15's.

[GeorgioP_Ohio]

Difference between 45 and 17.5 pilot jets - Mikuni

These pilot jets are proving harder to find and acquire than I imagined.

I am finding that some sites are selling the 17.5 MIKUNI-STYLE VM22/210 with no side holes as being labeled the 45 MIKUNI-STYLE N151.067.
Here is one such site:

http://pps.partsland.com/PartsUnlimited/Off-Road/Page850.php

Do you think that the 17.5 and the 45 pilot jets would have different flow rates?

Thanks,
George