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Should I do anything else while my carbs are apart?

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    Should I do anything else while my carbs are apart?

    Hello all, and thanks in advance. First some background, then the question.

    The bike:
    1980 GS250T with stock everything (that's BS30SS carbs) except that I've attached the mufflers from a Harley Sportster since the originals rusted out to nothing.

    The symptom(s):
    Bike starts near-instantly (faster than any of my newer FI bikes) and idles well. *Any* amount of throttle while the bike is warming up (first 5 minutes?) stalls it.

    As it warms up, it starts to be possible to turn the throttle a little, and the bike will rev a little before hitting a "rev wall". Increasing throttle to try to get it to rev higher than this "rev wall" stalls the engine. When the engine is fully warmed, the "rev wall" is probably around 6000RPM, and you can no longer stall the bike with the throttle, but it still runs poorly WOT. It seems to make no power above 5000RPM or so.

    Also interesting to note: if the bike is warmed and idling, pulling out the choke/enricher will cause the bike to rev, including well past this "rev wall". It will rev to ~4000RPM even cold with the choke held out (and no throttle applied).

    What I've done:
    I took off the carbs, dipped them, set float height (one side was 2mm too high), and checked that each carb passage was clean. I confirmed that all of the jets and the needle are stock sizes (main jets were sized one size down: stock is 105, 102.5 was installed), and that the needle has no non-stock spacers installed. I used the o-ring kit to replace all o-rings during re-assembly of the carbs.

    I've also replaced the intake boots between the carbs and engine as well as those o-rings.

    I intend to install one-size-larger-than-stock main jets (107.5) to work better with the freer flowing exhaust.

    Ok, wow, that was long-winded. Now the question: is there anything else I should check or change while the carbs are apart and off the bike? Or, should I re-assemble and hope that the problem had to do with clogging somewhere?

    Thanks for reading!

    #2
    What kind of air filter setup do you have now? Sounds like this bike is starting and idling normally, but is unhappy as airflow is increased.
    1981 gs650L

    "We are all born ignorant, but you have to work hard to stay stupid" Ben Franklin

    Comment


      #3
      Dirty carbs can be the cause of everything you describe here, so I say throw them on and see what happens.

      I do believe that not being able to give it much throttle when it's cold is normal for a carbureted engine, but I'd have to defer to someone more experienced to be sure. Probably shouldn't outright stall, though?

      Anyway, the other things that I would look at, if you haven't yet already, are your airbox and both sets of boots. If those are not in tip-top condition, the engine will be in a lean condition which will be exacerbated by the non-stock pipes.
      Charles
      --
      1979 Suzuki GS850G

      Read BassCliff's GSR Greeting and Mega-Welcome!

      Comment


        #4
        Airbox is stock. The boots connecting the airbox to the carb look ok, but they are 30+ years old, so maybe I should consider new ones.

        The foam filter itself looks to be pretty clean and well-oiled.

        Comment


          #5
          When you had carbs apart, did you inspect vacuum diaphragms for pinhole leaks? If you removed air filter element, does problem stay the same or get worse?
          1981 gs650L

          "We are all born ignorant, but you have to work hard to stay stupid" Ben Franklin

          Comment


            #6
            Ensure that the cam timeing is correct, a retarded one tooth, intake cam can give the sympthoms you describe. If that is the case, no mater what you do to the carbs it will not move the wall much.
            V
            Gustov
            80 GS 1100 LT, 83 1100 G "Scruffy"
            81 GS 1000 G
            79 GS 850 G
            81 GS 850 L
            83 GS 550 ES, 85 GS 550 ES
            80 GS 550 L
            86 450 Rebel, 70CL 70, Yamaha TTR125
            2002 Honda 919
            2004 Ural Gear up

            Comment


              #7
              Hi again! Some friendly tips below.

              Originally posted by mokosai View Post
              Airbox is stock. The boots connecting the airbox to the carb look ok, but they are 30+ years old, so maybe I should consider new ones.
              At that age, I'd suggest replacing them... Even if they look okay, they probably don't fit snugly in the airbox, which will cause leaks. Here's a picture of mine (new on left, old on right):



              The foam filter itself looks to be pretty clean and well-oiled.
              Clean is good, but it should only be lightly oiled. You can probably dab off the excess with a paper towel.

              Does yours have a seal between the air filter "cage" and airbox? On most bikes this old, that seal has crumbled away to nothing. The fix is to replace it with closed-cell weather stripping. I cleaned out my airbox real good and applied the weather stripping directly to the filter cage. Pretty easy job.
              Charles
              --
              1979 Suzuki GS850G

              Read BassCliff's GSR Greeting and Mega-Welcome!

              Comment


                #8
                Mokasai, this is EXACTLY the same problem I was having with my bike, re: "rev wall." I just started posting on here last week, but I've been told adjusting your valves is something you may want to look into doing while you've got the carbs off.

                Please let me know if you find a good deal on those boots in the airbox. They were something like $30 EACH (!) on the site I was searching. Mine are in good condition w/ no cracks, but I can turn them 360º inside the airbox. Can you do that w/ yours? I've seen conflicting reports on if this means they won't make a good seal or not. Seems like you could put some silicone sealant or something to seal them off, but I'm just guessing...

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by tom203 View Post
                  When you had carbs apart, did you inspect vacuum diaphragms for pinhole leaks? If you removed air filter element, does problem stay the same or get worse?
                  I still have the carbs off. The diaphragms appear to be completely free of holes (determined by holding them up to the light and see if it shines through anywhere).

                  Everything is still apart (and will be until at least this weekend), but I'll try that air filter test when I have it back together.

                  Originally posted by dieselhead View Post
                  Mokasai, this is EXACTLY the same problem I was having with my bike, re: "rev wall." I just started posting on here last week, but I've been told adjusting your valves is something you may want to look into doing while you've got the carbs off.

                  Please let me know if you find a good deal on those boots in the airbox. They were something like $30 EACH (!) on the site I was searching. Mine are in good condition w/ no cracks, but I can turn them 360º inside the airbox. Can you do that w/ yours? I've seen conflicting reports on if this means they won't make a good seal or not. Seems like you could put some silicone sealant or something to seal them off, but I'm just guessing...
                  I'll try spinning them when I get to work on the bike next.

                  Adjusting valves is on my list of things to do, I guess I might as well do it sooner than later.

                  You say that that's the problem you "had." Does that mean you've resolved it?

                  Originally posted by eil View Post
                  Hi again! Some friendly tips below.

                  Does yours have a seal between the air filter "cage" and airbox? On most bikes this old, that seal has crumbled away to nothing. The fix is to replace it with closed-cell weather stripping. I cleaned out my airbox real good and applied the weather stripping directly to the filter cage. Pretty easy job.
                  There is a seal and it is indeed crumbling away. The weather stripping is a great tip, thanks, I'll make sure to do that.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Maybe "had" is a little too optimistic I'm taking tomorrow off (b-day, turning 30... groan) and my "present" to myself is to work on my carbs all day. I'll let you know if it fixes it, although i'm probably doing it the wrong way as I'm adjusting valves, rebuilding carbs, replacing intake boot o-rings, among other things so I won't know exactly which one it was if the problem goes away, after working on all of them...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by dieselhead View Post
                      Maybe "had" is a little too optimistic I'm taking tomorrow off (b-day, turning 30... groan) .....
                      Hey, turning 30 ain't that bad- wait till you hit 50 before you groan.
                      You'll sort out your bike's issues- these critters seem pretty tough- they just need that maintenance that Basscliff is always selling!
                      Last edited by tom203; 04-18-2013, 03:47 PM. Reason: typo
                      1981 gs650L

                      "We are all born ignorant, but you have to work hard to stay stupid" Ben Franklin

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Greetings and Salutations!!

                        Hi Mr. mokosai,

                        I must apologize. I don't see how you could have accumulated 21 posts and not received the "mega-welcome". I must be slipping.

                        In your "mega-welcome" you will find a couple of maintenance lists. Every item on those lists must be properly addressed, repaired, replaced, cleaned, checked, serviced, etc, in order to have a safe and reliable motorcycle. I have also collected detailed procedural instructions on my little website to help you perform all of the necessary maintenance tasks. Skipping steps or taking shortcuts will be frustrating at best, dangerous at worst. Do it right the first time. You'll be glad you did.

                        If you are here you probably have a 30 year old motorcycle that needs about 20 years worth of maintenance. You'll find all kinds of helpful tips, procedures, manuals, diagrams, "how-to" guides, etc, in the links below. Let's get started.

                        Let me dump a TON of information on you and share some GS lovin'.

                        I just stopped by to welcome you to the forum in my own, special way.

                        If there's anything you'd like to know about the Suzuki GS model bikes, and most others actually, you've come to the right place. There's a lot of knowledge and experience here in the community. Come on in and let me say "HOoooowwwDY!"....

                        Here is your very own magical, mystical, mythical, mind-expanding "mega-welcome". Please take notice of the "Top 10 Common Issues", "Top 15 Tips For GS Happiness", the Carb Cleanup Series, and the Stator Papers. All of these tasks must be addressed in order to have a safe, reliable machine. This is what NOT to do: Top 10 Newbie Mistakes. Now let me roll out the welcome mat for you...



                        Please Click Here For Your Mega-Welcome, chock full of tips, suggestions, links to vendors, and other information. Then feel free to visit my little BikeCliff website where I've been collecting the wisdom of this generous community. Don't forget, we like pictures! Not you, your bike!

                        More links to helpful threads in the forum:
                        Help! Your Bike Won't Start
                        DON'T DO THESE THINGS
                        Help! Your Bike Won't Run Well
                        Oh God! Pods!



                        Thanks for joining us. Keep us informed.

                        Thank you for your indulgence,

                        BassCliff

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by dieselhead View Post
                          Maybe "had" is a little too optimistic I'm taking tomorrow off (b-day, turning 30... groan) and my "present" to myself is to work on my carbs all day. I'll let you know if it fixes it, although i'm probably doing it the wrong way as I'm adjusting valves, rebuilding carbs, replacing intake boot o-rings, among other things so I won't know exactly which one it was if the problem goes away, after working on all of them...
                          No worries about pinpointing the main cause, they're all things that need to be done to make the engine run properly anyway. Getting them all taken care of at once will save you time in the end. And if the bike still runs poorly, you've at least eliminated the most likely problems first.

                          Happy birthday!
                          Charles
                          --
                          1979 Suzuki GS850G

                          Read BassCliff's GSR Greeting and Mega-Welcome!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by dieselhead View Post
                            Please let me know if you find a good deal on those boots in the airbox. They were something like $30 EACH (!) on the site I was searching.
                            Please let us know what site you were searching, so we can be sure to AVOID it.

                            Either that, or you were looking at the wrong part.

                            The most expensive dealer that we use (usually just for looking up part numbers) is Alpha Sports, and they sell your boots for $16.50

                            More-typical is G&S Suzuki, which sells them for $10.15.

                            If you are looking for the boots between the carb and the engine, they are more expensive. G&S has them for $29.58, Alpha has them for $43.77.
                            (Now you see why we avoid Alpha, too.)

                            .
                            sigpic
                            mine: 2000 Honda GoldWing GL1500SE and 1980 GS850G'K' "Junior"
                            hers: 1982 GS850GL - "Angel" and 1969 Suzuki T250 Scrambler
                            #1 son: 1986 Yamaha Venture Royale 1300 and 1982 GS650GL "Rat Bagger"
                            #2 son: 1980 GS1000G
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                            Want a copy of my valve adjust spreadsheet for your 2-valve per cylinder engine? Send me an e-mail request (not a PM)
                            (Click on my username in the upper-left corner for e-mail info.)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              So as I'm putting everything back together, I notice that one of the float needles (I guess it's called the "needle valve"?) is stuck solid: the little "rod" sticking out of the end doesn't move at all. The other one bounces back fine when I push it in, but this one can't be pushed in (by comparing to the other one you can see it's stuck in the fully-out position).

                              I'm asking just to double check, but I assume this means I need a new one?

                              Comment

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