Pilot screw turns: the saga continues

[salty_monk]

Once they are properly clean... you shouldn't have to go back in there for cleaning again. Not unless you leave it standing for weeks.

Are the tips present (not broken off) on your air screws?

Are your diaphragms good (no pin holes).

Did you check that your floats actually do "float" in a jam jar of gas...

It looks like you're running Pods. Uni's are not the norm people go for here. Are you running a Dynojet kit? You're going to need a lot of changes from stock with that setup.

Ignition - not easy to check without another "known good" unit nearby. It's the ignitor box that goes out. There are some tests you can do but are not always conclusive. The fix is a Dyna 2000 on that model as you need the electronic advance. Someone posted a Czech source of ignitions that looked interesting just the other day...

[EDGECRUSHER]

Yes everything is in order. I used some different methods trying to clean the carbs trying to be thorough. I have not rushed. But crap keeps showing up inside the carbs mainly from my cleaning. Last time I soaked them i decided to blast them with baking soda too. It’s supposed to be water soluable and clean out easily. I washed them out with soapy water and blew them out with air. Then i sprayed tge dickens out of every passage with Berrymans, yet when I went in to replace the valve seats there was evidence of baking soda still in the carbs.
I find it amazing there was anything in them but I think the problem was I hadn’t removed the valve seats and screens because they were really stuck in and I didn’t want to damage them. I tore them up pretty bad this week putting in new and found quite abit of stuff trapped behind them.

just goes to show, people, there are no shortcuts when it comes to cleaning these carbs. Everything must come off. I thought I was being thorough and I spent a ton of time soaking and spraying but because I didn’t want to spend $140 on valve seats because they wouldn’t come out nicely, I’m now sitting here frustrated and facing yet another complete tear down and soak. The good thing is I can put these together in my sleep now.

The way it was running great and then suddenly bad like a switch had been flipped tells me something new has become dislodged and is plugging a passage.

I have cleaned plenty of different carbs in my day but these BS32’s have got to be the finickiest.

[Steve]

Gonna bring floats up closer to 22.4. They’re at 24 now. Maybe 23.4 and clean carbs for the upteenth time.

If the specified range is 22.4 ±1.0mm, why do you have them set to 24? Especially since that higher number will make the carbs leaner? When you change them, set them to about 22.0mm. Still well within the range, but slightly on the richer side.

Yes everything is in order. I used some different methods trying to clean the carbs trying to be thorough. I have not rushed. But crap keeps showing up inside the carbs mainly from my cleaning. Last time I soaked them i decided to blast them with baking soda too. It’s supposed to be water soluable and clean out easily. I washed them out with soapy water and blew them out with air. Then i sprayed tge dickens out of every passage with Berrymans, yet when I went in to replace the valve seats there was evidence of baking soda still in the carbs.
I find it amazing there was anything in them but I think the problem was I hadn’t removed the valve seats and screens because they were really stuck in and I didn’t want to damage them. I tore them up pretty bad this week putting in new and found quite abit of stuff trapped behind them.

just goes to show, people, there are no shortcuts when it comes to cleaning these carbs. Everything must come off. I thought I was being thorough and I spent a ton of time soaking and spraying but because I didn’t want to spend $140 on valve seats because they wouldn’t come out nicely, I’m now sitting here frustrated and facing yet another complete tear down and soak. The good thing is I can put these together in my sleep now.

The way it was running great and then suddenly bad like a switch had been flipped tells me something new has become dislodged and is plugging a passage.

I have cleaned plenty of different carbs in my day but these BS32’s have got to be the finickiest.

"Several methods" might be OK, as long as at least one of them is the proper way.

As you have found, every shortcut taken is merely an opportunity to do it over and do it RIGHT.

No need to spend all that money on inlet valves. Good-quality units are available for about $10 each.

Maybe it's because I have done so many, but I would rather do Suzuki's BS32 carbs than just about any other.

.

[EDGECRUSHER]

Where are you finding valves for $10?! They’re obviously not oem? I had non oem in there and the needle springs were worn out. I wouldn’t buy anything but oem.

as far as fliat height. Ive found 22.4 to be too high on my carbs. Like I said I’m too rich. Setting them to 24 was done after finding 22.4 too rich at idle and not being able to get an adjustment from the pilot screws.

When im on the needle it’s obviously too lean now. Before this session of tuning the needle was great which tells me that float height is to blame since it’s all that’s different. After I bring them up a bit and the needle feels better on the test run, I’m going to be down to only being able to adjust the pilot screws. I have to tear down and clean one more time and if idle is still stalling out I might have to give up on having a good idle.

[EDGECRUSHER]

this is a vid of the result of five hours of soaking and cleaning...again. I’m slowly turning out the idle speed trying to get it lower. Nothing happens until a point where it stalls. I’m hoping having you hear and see it you might have somebideas for me.
just to recap:
carbs soaked and blown clean probably six times now
ALL orings replaced
new valve seart and needle
pod filters and dynojets kit ( in video I’m tuning without filters on)
needle on 4th down
124 main rest is stock
Idle fuel screws at approx 1-1/2 out
No vacuum leaks - wd40 tested
valves have been adjusted
I’m sure someone will think of something im forgetting that I’ve also done

[EDGECRUSHER]

After sleeping on it I’m on the opinion that I’m actually too lean? That’s really the thing I’m having trouble identifying. What doesn’t make sense to me is when I pull my plugs they all look different. One and two almost look like they have gas on them. 1,2, and 4 have ok coloring. #3 is getting black.
btw compression is same on all cylinders 150
another thing that confuses me is the lack of change when I’m turning the idle fuel screws. I can make it die similar to the video but there’s no sweet spot where the idle improves. It just sounds flat all the time. It’s not necessary to have the filters on to get it to idle is it. I know it make a slight difference in the end but to start and get it in the ball park? I’ve tried either way before and not seen a difference.

[EDGECRUSHER]

Another thing. I have replaced everything rubber on them short of the diaphragms and the choke caps.
I never hear anyone talk about replacing the choke caps. I assume it’s because when the choke is off the plunger closes the system off not the choke caps. Is this correct?

[Steve]

Where are you finding valves for $10?! They’re obviously not oem? I had non oem in there and the needle springs were worn out. I wouldn’t buy anything but oem.

as far as fliat height. Ive found 22.4 to be too high on my carbs. Like I said I’m too rich. Setting them to 24 was done after finding 22.4 too rich at idle and not being able to get an adjustment from the pilot screws.

When im on the needle it’s obviously too lean now. Before this session of tuning the needle was great which tells me that float height is to blame since it’s all that’s different. After I bring them up a bit and the needle feels better on the test run, I’m going to be down to only being able to adjust the pilot screws. I have to tear down and clean one more time and if idle is still stalling out I might have to give up on having a good idle.

You are correct, they are not OEM. However, I have used several sets of them and have had absolutely no problems. If you choose to stay with OEM, it's strictly your choice, I can't force it.

Have you checked the actual fuel level with a clear tube outside the carb while the bike is running? That will help establish a proper baseline. When you have your baseline established, you can then start to adjust your jetting.

After sleeping on it I’m on the opinion that I’m actually too lean? That’s really the thing I’m having trouble identifying. What doesn’t make sense to me is when I pull my plugs they all look different. One and two almost look like they have gas on them. 1,2, and 4 have ok coloring. #3 is getting black.

Big question here is ... how are you numbering your cylinders? They are numbered from left to right, as you sit on the bike. #1 is under your clutch hand, #4 is under your throttle hand. It is more common for #2 to run rich, but that is an indicator that the petcock diaphragm is leaking, allowing fuel to go straight to #2 cylinder, bypassing the carb. Your "#3" running rich shows those symptoms, and could indicate improper numbering.

Another thing. I have replaced everything rubber on them short of the diaphragms and the choke caps.
I never hear anyone talk about replacing the choke caps. I assume it’s because when the choke is off the plunger closes the system off not the choke caps. Is this correct?

Correct. The cap on the "choke" is just a dust cover. There are two items that close off the system. The plunger body covers the air passage and the rubber seal around the tip closes off the fuel port.

.

[EDGECRUSHER]

You are correct, they are not OEM. However, I have used several sets of them and have had absolutely no problems. If you choose to stay with OEM, it's strictly your choice, I can't force it.T
Ordinarily I would get the best deal I can, however, after fighting this problem for so long I can't afford to risk throwing inferior parts at this thing. I want to know it's good. That being said, I did have one needle that did not support the weight of the float like it should so I used one of the old good needles. The only needle that failed before was an aftermarket. So I have three good spares - well technically two. Not sure if Partzilla will accept a return on that needle or if it's even worth returning.

Have you checked the actual fuel level with a clear tube outside the carb while the bike is running? That will help establish a proper baseline. When you have your baseline established, you can then start to adjust your jetting.
I have. Not this time around, but I was doing that prior to this last rebuild. I actually purchased a 5mm x 0.5 threading die with the intentions of making my own adapters. I know you can get adapter gauges online for about $8, but I'm a machine mechanic and I figure it never hurts to have another oddball tool in my kit to avoid that Saturday night frustration finding out I need it and it's not sold regularly in stores. I'll just need to pickup some 3/16" rod drill a hole through it, thread one end, bend it, and clamp a tube on. It would be nice to have four made up because filling up the float bowls and draining them after every single one is not what I call fun. So far checking this with a cobbled up hose clamped to the drain projection is sketchy at best. I can't be certain of my reading when it want's to drip at the slightest tug and I already had a scare when it popped off while the bike was hot and running! Not doing that again.


Big question here is ... how are you numbering your cylinders? They are numbered from left to right, as you sit on the bike. #1 is under your clutch hand, #4 is under your throttle hand. It is more common for #2 to run rich, but that is an indicator that the petcock diaphragm is leaking, allowing fuel to go straight to #2 cylinder, bypassing the carb. Your "#3" running rich shows those symptoms, and could indicate improper numbering.
I appreciate all suggestions because it probably is something stupid I'm not seeing which is why I need fresh eyes on this and I keep pestering the forum to help me. Fortunately, I understand basic inline four motorcycle cylinder numbers so, no, I have the numbers correct. 3 is black and dry. 1 and 2 are clean but appear to have wetness on them when I pull them (possibly just them before they fired on the compression stroke?). And 4 always looks great.


Correct. The cap on the "choke" is just a dust cover. There are two items that close off the system. The plunger body covers the air passage and the rubber seal around the tip closes off the fuel port.
ok, good. I'm tired of ordering parts to have to wait four weeks to get them.

.

As far as gauging the fuel levels; where do you look on the outside of the carb to measure from? the line made by the top edge of the float bowl? or do you picture where the gasket surface is behind the bowl flange? Can you check the middle carbs, 2 and 3, on the bowls of 1 or 2 if the bike is level?

Thanks for those that are helping me try to figure this out. I'm sorry if it seems to keep going on forever or if it seems like I don't get it somehow. I'm out there probably spending fifteen to twenty hours a week trying to get this right. I'm determined to figure it out. I do need some help though. Granted my methods are improving everytime I try it over and over, but it gets pretty frustrating when you think you got it nailed and nothing changes and you just hit a wall. Sometimes I wonder if I'm thinking about it TOO MUCH? lol

[EDGECRUSHER]

Evidence points toward a plugged idle circuit but we know that's not possible at this point. What do I have to work with here? float height and fuel screw? fuel screw has no effect. guess it'd have to be floats then right?

thinking out loud here. chime in when you ready to party.

[Gorminrider]

As far as gauging the fuel levels; where do you look on the outside of the carb to measure from? the line made by the top edge of the float bowl? or do you picture where the gasket surface is behind the bowl flange? Can you check the middle carbs, 2 and 3, on the bowls of 1 or 2 if the bike is level?

Carb bowls all have independent levels set by their floats. IF your needles and seats are good, the shop manual will guide you. Try to use a fullish tank of gas at roughly the same height as it is on the bike to "bench-test" all this. This will be a good test of your needles and seats, and thereby a good test of fuel levels.
ON the bike, agin with a "fullish" tank,
Carbs may not be level when the bike is sitting on wheels or especially the stand, which can angle them forward or maybe even back if the suspension has been changed... so judging fuel levels wiith a tube on the drain screw will often be an angle..the centre of that "angle line" across the bowl's seam =the center of the bowl's seam and that is where the level should be observed.

[EDGECRUSHER]

More thinking out loud:
If my idle circuit is too lean for three of my carbs then I can either increase the size of the pilot jet or decrease the air pilot jet. I believe the effect of either is not proportional from what I have read.
My thought is this. I'm curious if I could test changing the air pilot without having to buy new buy filling the hole in it and then drilling to a new smaller size? Less air being added to the pilot mix should richen up my idle. Whatever I used to fill the hole could be something easily removed like super glue or cheap epoxy so my alteration isn't permanent.
It's either that or drill out my pilots carefully. I have to find out how the air pilot influences other circuits...

a helpfull diagram I found on DO THE TON.com
bs34_2012-05-05.jpg

[EDGECRUSHER]

Going back to the drawing board this weekend. I keep reading the tuning guides and they keep making me think maybe I'm not being thorough enough with my main jet selection. 124 right now seems like it's fantastic, but then again the 130 did too. I'm chasing my tail right now and I'm questioning why I can't tune idle at all. It just makes me think I haven't done my due diligence on steps one and two. If I'm doing microscopic adjustments now just to get a smidge closer to running under 1500rpms then how can I expect to tune any finer once I'm there? It just doesn't make any sense so I must need to start over again.
I won't be back until I have it figured out or need advice on something different. I know realize it's hard to diagnose someone's carburation without being there and I'm probably just wasting my time asking a million questions hoping to have an epiphany. I've always had success bouncing ideas off other people but that's just not happening with this one.

[Big T]

Your idle circuit is lean? Turn the mixture screws out 1/4 turn at a time to correct the mix
How many turns are they out now?

[EDGECRUSHER]

Big T, I just can’t find a sweet spot. I’m pretty sure it’s not there. I start at 2 turns. Going out from there does nothing good. turning just #3, which is my richer cylinder, half turn in is about the best i can get to lower idle to around 1600. From there i start turning screws in which actually raises the rpms some but when I adjust the curb idle speed it just stalls out. I have to keep turning it in as I lean. I think the problem is at that point the rpms are getting me out of the idle circuit range and it starts to go on the needle.

Does any of that make sense?

When I open the screws eventually I get blue exhaust and it starts fouling plugs.