Stater and Reg/Rect problems on 82 GS650Ez

[650Skull]

Those FET FH-XXX type units have more advanced components than the older type SH units, but they are still shunt type. We try to avoid shunt R/R's on GS charging systems because they put your stator under stress by returning unused power created by the generator back to the stator, where it's converted to heat.

Here is a link to a thread about installing a shunt type Honda R/R on a GS. The math shows that 11.5% of the users had a stator failure after doing this.
https://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...-R-Users-Poll=

As mentioned, the Shindengen SH775 is a SERIES type R/R, and will protect your stator.

Here is one selling on eBay.au https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/334550004607

It seems to be shipping from the US, though. I can't see the price for shipping on my end, but a USPS small flat rate box costs $43 USD.

I sometimes snap up cheap SH775's from eBay, test them on my bike, then resell here for a little beer money profit. I've got a couple now, but you can get them cheaper by searching out the deals yourself. Honestly, I've yet to find one that didn't work. I have found them with broken plastic connectors, though. That's the only real risk.

Polaris, Harley, Indian, Sea Do, Canam, and no doubt other companies, are using SH775's, or have in the past.

If you just don't have the money, I'd target one of the old SH2xx or SH5xx units that use the sense wire. Those units never fail, and should be dirt cheap. The FHXX units are more money, and not worth it, in my opinion.

Thank Ed. I'll try to get the one you linked to off Fleecebay

[Nessism]

I am not going to get into which Regulator/Rectfier brand works best, frankly, I don't know.

The problem that causes this with Suzuki's of that era is that Suzuki only regulated the Voltage on one leg of the Stator. The other two legs were Rectified, but NOT Regulated and allowed to run up and down in voltage swings, and any corrosion on the ground wire, especially the one that goes to the engine and is grounded to a painted surface, relying on the threads to ground (dissimilar metal = electrolysis = corrosion = loss of ground) and your wiring system burns up, most of the time taking the Stator with it, or diminishing it's output.

I fixed my '83 GS750ES (which I purchased new, assembled it out of the crate) by purchasing a "NoSports" Stator that put out 20% more voltage. I used a Voltage Regulator/Rectifier off of a Kawasaki 1100 (Thank You EBAY, $20 bucks). a massive unit with heat stinks on it, that is mounted under the fuel tray now (had to make a little bracket for it). I routed the 3 wires from the Stator directly to the Regulator/Rectifier and ran the +/- wires directly to the battery. I removed almost 6' feet of useless wire from the harness just but snipping the ends, and pulling it out, they were all Stator wires No problems for 8000 miles.. I am a Certified Electronic Technician, had a T.V. repair shop for 10 years, did audio, almost anything that I could fix.

This problem has plagued many otherwise fantastic Suzuki motorcycles from that era. I remember seeing GS1150 in beautiful condition "has electrical problems' going for $1000 dollars. I wish I had purchased all the bikes I saw, as everyone knows what the problem is now, and those bikes aren't cheap anymore..

No insult intended to anyone, just my experience.

I'm not an electrical expert, but I can't find evidence in the factory manual that Suzuki only regulated one leg of the stator output. The system circuit diagrams in the manual look like every other shunt type regulator, other than the dumb head lamp switch element on one leg of the stator output (which the US market bikes don't use.) Please share how you came to your conclusion about the deficient Suzuki system. I'm fully aware of the poor grounding scheme for the R/R on many, if not most, GS bikes, and I'm also aware that Suzuki really cheaped out on the R/R, as evidenced by their size, but in terms of circuitry internal to the R/R, I don't see any deficiency other than they are shunt type.

What I do know, is that the reason stators burn out on GS bikes is because the generator makes too much power for the bike's needs, then the excess power is shunted back to the stator by the R/R, causing overheat damage. Running a high-power stator, which apparently you are doing, is going in the opposite direction of need, unless you have added a bunch of electrical accessories to the bike to reduce excess power. Incidentally, Kawasaki KZ bikes don't burn stators like GS bikes. Reason being, the generators are lower powered, thus there is less power to shunt back to the stator. In fact, installing a Dyna S on a bike like a KZ550 can overwhelm the charging system, because the generator output is not designed to support additional current draw.

And BTW, can you provide a link to a "NoSports" stator? I can't find any reference to this brand anywhere.

[Suzukian]

My bad on the alternator name, it's "ElectroSports", it was a very long time ago. ( Link = http://www.bikerperformance.com/elec...87-p11360.html )

My source was the factory Service Representative, who told me when I worked at a Suzuki Dealership, and my Techtronix 100 Mhz O'scope. This fact is so well known, and no, the generator does not produce too much electricity (voltage, and Generators produce amps!), (Ohm's Law, E/IxR, P/IxE) a lot of this is because it's not a generator, it's an Alternator. My "ElectroSports" alternator produces 20% more voltage than stock. That's why a motorcycle cannot charge a dead battery, Older cars (as in my 1973 MG Midget) has a huge generator and you can bump start it, go for a 100 mile ride, and have a full battery, of course, being an MG, going for a 100 mile ride is an accomplishment in itself!

I fix circuit boards for anything down to component level. I am one of the few in the area that does that. I won't go over my credentials with you. Not necessary. Use the info or don't. That's up top you. All Rectified, only one leg Regulated, a horrid design. Some of you guys are going through way too much trouble, as most modern R/R's will work on anything with 3 legs, and turn it into DC, Geez, you could make you own Wheatstone Bridge with a heat sink and bang one of these out with a DC to DC converter attached. Just buy a used on off of EBAY for a big bore machine, and you won't have any problems. They're cheap,the Suzuki Stator coils(mine anyways) is bathed in oil, so overheating is not an issue. Do you know how to take 4 diodes and convert A/C to pulsating DC? See picture below.

I am a State of Connecticut Certified Electronic Technician with a V1 license. I won't say "expert" as there is always more to learn, but from T.V.'s, to audio systems. designing speakers, and installing $100,000 dollar Garmin Radio Stacks in aircraft, and trouble shooting those kind of units, I've done quite a bit.

main-qimg-850439c954dcdfbcfc4305d2f8c84552.gif

[Gorminrider]

Nessism ...um... Suzuki's ND R/Rs were different than most...here's the diagram from my 650 manual...

Suzuki650 Reg diagram.jpg

note there are only two scrs...the good ol' "common type has 3 scrs -one for each leg. (also note the "darlington" to up the current to the scrs' gates...haha I did try to mention there's a thing about scrs...an FET wouldn't likely need this as they're voltage sensitive rather than current...?)

But that aside, the suzuki circuit "should" work fine but relies on more things being right- the light switch for one.... and IMO -really the problem with these ND r/rs was the lack of heatsink...mine sure got hot.

[Gorminrider]

hondaRR.png

here's a honda R/R sh232 or 238 or the like on many other bikes...It ddoesn't show the circuit feeding the gates of the scrs but it's going to be similar to the diagram above...

[Gorminrider]

AND here's the R/R diagram for Suzuki twins and maybe more- a single scr...(from the manual)
Closeup-SuzukiRR-ShopManual-250-300.png ..maybe, quite a lot of work for one scr...?

Anyone can goto a motorcycle forum and check out the "hotspot" of complaints to figure out the weak points of whatever old bike they're considering, IF you ignore "carburetors" that is By (my) metric, Early '80s Suzuki charging systems are troublesome. As to why, the theories abound...people do various fixes and if it works, they swear by it. That's the internet for ya.

[Gorminrider]

,the Suzuki Stator coils(mine anyways) is bathed in oil, so overheating is not an issue. Do you know how to take 4 diodes and convert A/C to pulsating DC? See picture below.

...well, no, not exactly "bathed in oil"-it's just a drip from the shaft to keep it lubricated. "Cooling" ,I think not, but it likely contributes to the crust and discolouration that's seen on Suzuki stators....

[Suzukian]

Very good posts Gorminrider. The problem with the Suzuki GS750ES and 1150ES, which shared many components, were as I described. i don't know what was going on in Suzuki's development departments, but they must have been fighting each other. The fact that any 3 legged stator can hook up to and Regulator/Rectifier that accepts 3 legs, and has a plus and minus output demonstrates how easy the fix van be. I chose the Yamaha XS1100 as we were a Suzuki/Yamaha dealership, and were not having problems with the Yamaha's. I also made sure to state it was my experience, that includes the Northeastern U.S. Suzuki Representative, and using my own instrumentation to actually see the wave forms in the O'Scope. You're right on the money about the heat, mine go really hot too. I purchased a stock one, and that ran really hot. That's when I decided to go outside the box, I just got tired of melting wires, and didn't want to spring another $100+ for the stator. I've had great luck with my set up. All my stator wires are exactly the same color, they all look exactly the same. That being said, I think any three legged stator from that era can use a R/R from any of them that accept 3 legs, and output DC +/-.. I have passed this on and helped many people do this mod and had no complaints.

I have a Kawasaki ZZR1200 that seems to have none or these problems. I actually can find nothing wrong with this bike. I got it last year , it's a 2004, with only 4385 original miles on it. I paid $2400 bucks for it. Easiest valves of the shim style, to adjust, you just slide the rocker arm to the side and replace the shim, no special tools..

Good luck to all, may whatever you come up with serve you well. I still wish I purchased the pair of, I think, 1984 GS1150's that I could have had both for $2K. They are worth so much more now.

[Gorminrider]

Here's something you will like,suzukian...it's what was on one of member trevor's bike when he bought it...homemade with just the bridges you were mentionioning...I was sad he immediately took it off... gotta love the "voltage divider"? on the scr


HomeMadeRegulator_trevorBike.jpg

[Suzukian]

That's someone who wants to go riding, and does what he needs to accomplish his goal!! That is impressive. I'm a technician not an engineer, so when I see people put stuff like this together, I just think "Brilliant!".

[Nessism]

I defer to you guy's greater electrical knowledge about R/R's, but regardless, that doesn't change the problem of excess power being shunted back to the stator, and cooking it. That's the REAL problem with the system, not how the regulation is performed.

[Nessism]

My bad on the alternator name, it's "ElectroSports", it was a very long time ago. ( Link = http://www.bikerperformance.com/elec...87-p11360.html )

My source was the factory Service Representative, who told me when I worked at a Suzuki Dealership, and my Techtronix 100 Mhz O'scope. This fact is so well known, and no, the generator does not produce too much electricity (voltage, and Generators produce amps!), (Ohm's Law, E/IxR, P/IxE) a lot of this is because it's not a generator, it's an Alternator. My "ElectroSports" alternator produces 20% more voltage than stock. That's why a motorcycle cannot charge a dead battery, Older cars (as in my 1973 MG Midget) has a huge generator and you can bump start it, go for a 100 mile ride, and have a full battery, of course, being an MG, going for a 100 mile ride is an accomplishment in itself!

I fix circuit boards for anything down to component level. I am one of the few in the area that does that. I won't go over my credentials with you. Not necessary. Use the info or don't. That's up top you. All Rectified, only one leg Regulated, a horrid design. Some of you guys are going through way too much trouble, as most modern R/R's will work on anything with 3 legs, and turn it into DC, Geez, you could make you own Wheatstone Bridge with a heat sink and bang one of these out with a DC to DC converter attached. Just buy a used on off of EBAY for a big bore machine, and you won't have any problems. They're cheap,the Suzuki Stator coils(mine anyways) is bathed in oil, so overheating is not an issue. Do you know how to take 4 diodes and convert A/C to pulsating DC? See picture below.

I am a State of Connecticut Certified Electronic Technician with a V1 license. I won't say "expert" as there is always more to learn, but from T.V.'s, to audio systems. designing speakers, and installing $100,000 dollar Garmin Radio Stacks in aircraft, and trouble shooting those kind of units, I've done quite a bit.

main-qimg-850439c954dcdfbcfc4305d2f8c84552.gif

Motorcycles like a GS do not have an alternator, they have a permanent magnet generator. Alternators vary the generating field to control how much power is produced, a permanent magnet generator produces power with every rotation regardless of load. You can't shut it off, that's why a SERIES R/R is best, because it can shut off the returned current being sent back to the stator, cooking it.

[bitzz]

Motorcycles like a GS do not have an alternator, they have a permanent magnet generator. Alternators vary the generating field to control how much power is produced, a permanent magnet generator produces power with every rotation regardless of load. You can't shut it off, that's why an R/R is needed, and why a SERIES R/R is best, because it can shut off the returned current being sent back to the stator, cooking it.

Errrr. NO
Generators output DC current. (not really but close enough for us)
Alternators output AC or alternating current, hence "alternators". Alternators need a rectifier to convert AC to DC to charge the battery. Generators don't... MY GS has a rectifier.
An alternator that is regulated by changing the field voltage is called a "field regulated alternator". An alternator with a permanent magnet rotor is called a "permanent magnet alternator" or a "shunt regulated alternator'.
With a permanent magnet alternator the current will increase as the rotor RPM goes up, so they're usually designed to just charge the battery at idle (about 13v), but at redlne the thing will put out enough current to boil the battery (about 15v)... so to deal with this excess current the regulator will "shunt" this excess to ground .
The OEM regulator uses Zenor or Schotkky diodes in parallel to shunt this current
A Shindengen HA or FA regulator uses Mosfets transistors in series to shunt this current.
Mosfets switch much faster than diodes and make a lot less heat. Any regulator you put on a GS will be a "shunt" regulator (if you want it to work). "Series" describes where the switching in the regulator takes place.

[Nessism]

Errrr. NO
Generators output DC current. (not really but close enough for us)
Alternators output AC or alternating current, hence "alternators". Alternators need a rectifier to convert AC to DC to charge the battery. Generators don't... MY GS has a rectifier.
An alternator that is regulated by changing the field voltage is called a "field regulated alternator". An alternator with a permanent magnet rotor is called a "permanent magnet alternator" or a "shunt regulated alternator'.
With a permanent magnet alternator the current will increase as the rotor RPM goes up, so they're usually designed to just charge the battery at idle (about 13v), but at redlne the thing will put out enough current to boil the battery (about 15v)... so to deal with this excess current the regulator will "shunt" this excess to ground .
The OEM regulator uses Zenor or Schotkky diodes in parallel to shunt this current
A Shindengen HA or FA regulator uses Mosfets transistors in series to shunt this current.
Mosfets switch much faster than diodes and make a lot less heat. Any regulator you put on a GS will be a "shunt" regulator (if you want it to work). "Series" describes where the switching in the regulator takes place.

In the factory service manual, Suzuki describes the stator/rotor as the "AC generator". I'm not an electrical expert, if the proper terminology is different, my apology. Most people think of an "alternator" as used on a car, which uses a field coil.

A Series R/R shuts off return current to the stator, whereas a shunt R/R send it on through. That's why a Series R/R saves the stator. There have been guys here with a current clamp on meter who showed the current doesn't go back to the stator with a SH775, regardless of RPM. That's the whole point here.

[Rob S.]

I've heard recently that a car style alternator is basically the stator and r/r under one cover. I can live with that. (I haven't touched a soldering iron in half a century.)