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    Retarding Ignition Timing

    My 82 GSX750SZ Katana is well and truly run-in after the rebuild/resurrection and it makes good power in the upper reaches of the rev range, with the ass-dyno registering a definite giddy-up 7,500 - 9,500 rpm indicated. The 750SZ has slightly more aggressive cam timing and compression ratio is up a bit too (9.8:1) over the standard 16-valve GS750E (9.4:1) due to raised decks on the piston tops, which uprated claimed HP from 79bhp @ 9,200 rpm to 84bhp @ 9,500 rpm for the Kat. And claimed torque went from 46.7 lb-ft @ 7,000 rpm to 50.2 lb-ft @ 8,500 rpm in the Katana. So a peakier motor to be sure.

    During the 750 engine rebuild I took 0.15 mm (0.006") off the barrels to close the squish areas up. With the head skimmed, the squish was measured cold at 0.8 mm (0.031") and I calculated the total reduction in chamber volume as giving a slight compression ratio boost to 9.9:1. Theoretically these changes should speed up the burn speed, by how much I do not know. While at stock timing the bike ran well and exhibited no detonation (except under high load at very low rpm), the power in the mid range felt.... a little flabby. Its not bad, but it feels a little anemic. Jetting looks spot on from the plugs, so I began to wonder if the timing was too advanced. I don't have anything to compare it to, apart from my 650G Katana, which are also deliver at rpm close to redline; peak hp is delivered at 9,400 rpm, max torque at 8,000 rpm. Its feels comparatively crisper/more lively in the mid-range.

    I had checked TDC and indexed it and set the (stock) ignition timing to that. The manual states that full advance on the is 35° BTDC above 2,350 rpm. Which seems like a lot of timing given that my 1100 has bigger bores, the same TSCC head and stock it runs 32° of advance. The 8-valve GS750 ran 37° full advance (the 650G runs 40°), which is understandable because it is a slow-burning squish-free hemi. But a TSCC head (essentially a pentroof with a rib), a centrally located spark plug in a 67 mm bore, and a squish area of what I measured to be roughly 15% of the piston area, should be a comparatively quick burner.

    I have decided to see whether I can tune the ignition timing via the ground strap/center electrode on the plug. Has anyone else done this? Essentially the theory is that as the spark is advanced the electrode temperature rises and this is witnessed on the ground strap and the tip of the center electrode by the amount of fuel film residue that is burnt off. More advance gives more localised heat and the more residue is burnt off (assuming correct heat range). Ideal for the street is when the 'tide' mark is on the bend of the ground strap and the film is only missing at hair's breadth from the top edge of the center electrode.

    I didn't take a before photo, but after a days ride, the ground strap of a well-used plug was the same colour from tip to and including the weld. The center electrode was clean and uniform. I retarded the ignition a little did a high-speed(ish) plug chop and this was the result.



    This is the same plug and colour has moved up the ground strap past the weld and fuel film has appeared to about halfway up the centre electrode. The bike feels to be running stronger in the mid-range. I will take out some more timing and report back. I will confirm with fresh plugs. Any thoughts?


    Last edited by KiwiAlfa156; 03-20-2024, 10:56 PM.


    "Johnny the boy has done it again... This time its a scrubber"
    Dazza from Kiwiland
    GSX1100SXZ, GSX750SZ, GS650GZ All Katanas, all 1982

    #2
    After riding local streets and motorway, I can say that it feels that there is more torque from 3,000 rpm up, with the bike being more responsive to the throttle with better roll-on mid-rage acceleration. I quite happy with it, but will take some more timing out -until the ground strap mark is at the bend- to see whether it improves further. If not I'll return it to the setting it is now.


    "Johnny the boy has done it again... This time its a scrubber"
    Dazza from Kiwiland
    GSX1100SXZ, GSX750SZ, GS650GZ All Katanas, all 1982

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by KiwiAlfa156 View Post
      ...better roll-on mid-rage acceleration.
      I think you're on to something there (mid-RAGE).
      1982 GS1100E V&H "SS" exhaust, APE pods, 1150 oil cooler, 140 speedo, 99.3 rear wheel HP, black engine, '83 red

      2016 XL883L sigpic Two-tone blue and white. Almost 42 hp! Status: destroyed, now owned by the insurance company. The hole in my memory starts an hour before the accident and ends 24 hours after.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Rob S. View Post

        I think you're on to something there (mid-RAGE).
        Middle-age-rage?


        "Johnny the boy has done it again... This time its a scrubber"
        Dazza from Kiwiland
        GSX1100SXZ, GSX750SZ, GS650GZ All Katanas, all 1982

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by KiwiAlfa156 View Post

          Middle-age-rage?
          That's the best kind.
          1982 GS1100E V&H "SS" exhaust, APE pods, 1150 oil cooler, 140 speedo, 99.3 rear wheel HP, black engine, '83 red

          2016 XL883L sigpic Two-tone blue and white. Almost 42 hp! Status: destroyed, now owned by the insurance company. The hole in my memory starts an hour before the accident and ends 24 hours after.

          Comment


            #6
            35 degrees is not a lot of advance by 4V/cylinder standards. I'd suggest that the - fairly typical - slow midrange response is actually lowish intake vacuum at that point slowing the slides lifting. It can be tuned out by increasing the size of the vacuum sensing holes in the slide bottoms. Typically they're around 1.8mm diameter. I have had very good results going up .05mm at a time in size until you're happy. And yes, in NZ you can buy metric drills in .05mm increments.

            I'd imagine some on here will say don't do it. It is possible to reverse back to OE by epoxying a plastic bush in the oversize hole, the bush having obviously the OE size drilling.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by GregT View Post
              35 degrees is not a lot of advance by 4V/cylinder standards. I'd suggest that the - fairly typical - slow midrange response is actually lowish intake vacuum at that point slowing the slides lifting.
              Thanks Greg. My initial retarding of the timing from 35° to what I now estimate to be around 32-33° had resulted in a noticeable and enjoyable increase mid-range torque and consequent rideability. And I plan to back it off a bit more to see whether it yields more improvement or not. Experimenting with retarding ignition timing is a safe activity as its moving away from potential detonation, rather than towards it. And if retarding the ignition timing further causes torque loss, I'll just advance it back.

              The modifications I've done to the head were done to speed up combustion burn speed (and reduce the chances of detonation) through higher squish jet speed from tighter squish clearance. The theory is that if the charge is burning quicker, then combustion is completed sooner and peak pressure is achieved sooner. For peak pressure to be most effectively converted to torque it needs to coincide with a crank angle of 11-12° ATDC (according to Kevin Cameron https://www.cycleworld.com/blogs/ask...wer-explained/)



              If peak pressure does occurs too soon (closer to TDC), power is lost through having to compress the expanding gas (negative work). And as you can see from the graph above, a couple of degrees does make a difference. I had the feeling that too much 'negative work' might be happening in the 750, as it felt a little down on grunt in the mid-range for a 750 four. May be it was burning quicker and losing power to these dynamic pumping losses. Hence the experiment of lighting the mix a little later and seeing if this made a difference, which it has.

              Went down a bit of a rabbit-hole researching charge turbulence and burn speed including a forum discussion in which some engineers who design combustion chambers for European car makers got involved, which was a bit of a mind-blower https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/vie...5624&start=165

              Seems that TSCC should really be TTCC (Twin Tumble Combustion Chamber) as technically swirl is a circular whirlpool motion around the piston top generated by angle inlet ports in 2-valve hemi chambers. Tumble is the fore-aft looping motion you get in a 4-valve head. Long story short, in a 4-valve engine the uniformity of the tumble collapses before the charge is ignited, but the energy of the tumble motion is utilized by squish gases shooting into the center of the chamber to shred and spread the flame front in the combined turbulence resulting in a faster burn. For reference a normally aspirated 4-valve Cosworth head runs 27-28° full advance due to this action. Old school thought is the most advance you can run without detonation is where you get the most power. The car guys tuning on dynos found this isn't always true, as the 'correct' ignition timing for a particular engine is all related to burn speed and where peak pressure occurs. In some cases sometimes less is more.

              Looking at tuning forums online, plug reading for ignition timing looks to provide some means of setting ignition timing to some form of combustion indicator. How accurate this is, I have no idea, but the information seems consistent across lots of different forums (hopefully not folktales blindly accepted and repeated). But according to NGK, the science behind it is sound https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORnxgcxuKEc

              The throttle response 'issue' wasn't a case of lag or delay, just less power that expected when I opened the throttle. That being said, once I'm happy that the ignition timing is 'right'. I'll investigate the slide holes as I have heard that this mod does offer improvements. Thanks again.


              "Johnny the boy has done it again... This time its a scrubber"
              Dazza from Kiwiland
              GSX1100SXZ, GSX750SZ, GS650GZ All Katanas, all 1982

              Comment


                #8
                Guessing that chart is probably quite old, but I've never seen it. Thanks for putting it up there. Explains a lot (I think) about ign. timing. Lower octane fuel burns faster than higher octane fuel, so running higher octane fuel should mean could benefit from a more retarded ign., and lower octane (faster burning) could use less retarded timing to get peak power closer to TDC...
                1983 GS1100E, 1983 CB1100F, 1991 GSX1100G, 1996 Kaw. ZL600 Eliminator, 1999 Bandit 1200S, 2005 Bandit 1200S, 2000 Kaw. ZRX 1100

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by rphillips View Post
                  Lower octane fuel burns faster than higher octane fuel, so running higher octane fuel should mean could benefit from a more retarded ign., and lower octane (faster burning) could use less retarded timing to get peak power closer to TDC...
                  Apparently this is true in some cases, but from what I've read, octane rating and burn speed aren't automatically related in modern fuels. Knock resistance, heat per gram, and latent flame speed is down to a lot of factors, including the constitution of the molecular soup and whatever additives are part of the brew. I guess with knock resistance, there are many ways to skin a cat, including the addition of ethanol. And thats just the fuel itself. Then there are the mechanical factors, such as combustion chamber design/turbulence, fuel atomization, head temperature stability, compression ratio, etc.
                  ​​​​​​

                  The real benefit from higher octane is the higher compression ratios that can be tolerated, which raises both the 'negative work' and the 'positive work' in the graph, but results in an overall gain in positive work, all from the same gram of fuel. The air-cooled GS are pretty low compression ratios in the 9.x:1, compared to the 12.5:1 of the Hayabusa
                  .


                  "Johnny the boy has done it again... This time its a scrubber"
                  Dazza from Kiwiland
                  GSX1100SXZ, GSX750SZ, GS650GZ All Katanas, all 1982

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Yeah well, I'm just too old and simple minded for all that, if higher octane burns slower it "should" need a little more time to put that peak at TDC... No doubt plenty of other stuff involved, but hard for me to keep up with the simple stuff. Any attempt at keeping up with the rest would be futile.
                    1983 GS1100E, 1983 CB1100F, 1991 GSX1100G, 1996 Kaw. ZL600 Eliminator, 1999 Bandit 1200S, 2005 Bandit 1200S, 2000 Kaw. ZRX 1100

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by rphillips View Post
                      Yeah well, I'm just too old and simple minded for all that, if higher octane burns slower it "should" need a little more time to put that peak at TDC... No doubt plenty of other stuff involved, but hard for me to keep up with the simple stuff. Any attempt at keeping up with the rest would be futile.
                      All good my friend. I just find this stuff fascinating. Always have.


                      "Johnny the boy has done it again... This time its a scrubber"
                      Dazza from Kiwiland
                      GSX1100SXZ, GSX750SZ, GS650GZ All Katanas, all 1982

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The higher octane fuel doesn’t necessarily burn any faster, but it has higher resistance to preignition.
                        The rate of burn is effected by the compression ratio, or more correctly by the effective compression ratio, as it packs the molecules closer together.
                        The optimum number of crank degrees ATDC for maximum pressure is effected by the rod/stroke ratio which effects dwell time around TDC.
                        Jim, in Central New York State.

                        1980 GS750E (bought used June,1983)
                        1968 CB350 Super Sport (bought new Oct,1968)
                        1962 CA77 305 Dream (bought used Feb,1963)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Couldn't argue all that tech. stuff,... But all things equal, both fuels going through the same cyl, same compression, same temps., and the molecule packing being the same, the hi octane will still burn slower and the lower octane will still burn faster" ... unless I'm wrong.
                          1983 GS1100E, 1983 CB1100F, 1991 GSX1100G, 1996 Kaw. ZL600 Eliminator, 1999 Bandit 1200S, 2005 Bandit 1200S, 2000 Kaw. ZRX 1100

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by pdqford View Post
                            The higher octane fuel doesn’t necessarily burn any faster, but it has higher resistance to preignition.
                            The rate of burn is effected by the compression ratio, or more correctly by the effective compression ratio, as it packs the molecules closer together.
                            The optimum number of crank degrees ATDC for maximum pressure is effected by the rod/stroke ratio which effects dwell time around TDC.
                            True that. Spark ignited internal combustion is a multi-factor/variable dynamic. And you're absolutely right that compression ratio itself is dynamic. Being less than the static CR at idle, but more than the static CR at maximum torque when valve overlap and tuned exhaust pulses combine to cram the cylinder with fresh charge.

                            But what effects the burn time the most (as opposed to flame speed - which is pretty much a constant for any particular fuel) is charge turbulence in the combustion chamber.

                            As rpm rises so does the turbulence (swirl, tumble and squish) in the combustion chamber as the air velocity through the inlet ports increases with rpm. The more turbulent mixture around the flame kernel ignited by the spark plug, the shorter the burn time. This is why ignition timing at 3,000 rpm is also ideal at redline, even though the time for the combustion event between ignition and peak pressure is radically shortened.
                            Last edited by KiwiAlfa156; 03-27-2024, 01:47 AM.


                            "Johnny the boy has done it again... This time its a scrubber"
                            Dazza from Kiwiland
                            GSX1100SXZ, GSX750SZ, GS650GZ All Katanas, all 1982

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Octane rating does not affect how fast the fuel charge burns.
                              The density of the fuel will, heavier fuel will burn slower

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