GSX 250 starter solenoid issue

[rphillips]

Thinking the same thing Jim, even if just a few strands of pos. cable are intact, shouldn't click, but the fewer strands intact, the quicker they will heat up and cable getting hot was never symptom. Hard to believe nobody advised to connect, touch together, the 2 big lugs on the top of solenoid with a screwdriver or wrench, won't hurt a thing but kind'f scary if you're not expecting big sparks. That does the same thing the solenoid is supposed to do but on the outside end of the lug instead of inside the solenoid. If starter runs properly arcing at the top, you'll know the solenoid is not making contact on the inside.

[ukjules]

All of what you say is in the post at the start.

Anyway I am done with the solenoid as seems to be fixed. I am still concerned at the one test failure as I said at the start using resistance.

for info the only ohms resistance tests I did were at the start of the post. These advised on every YouTube channel when I had to research.

solenoid ohms tests GSX 250

Test 1: pass
With solenoid not energised
MM at 200 ohm setting
MM to earth on solenoid and to ignition wire on solenoid.
Should show 4ohms
(note : higher res than simply measuring a wire as measuring a coil inside)



Test 2: fail
Solenoid energised
MM at 200 ohm setting
MM probes between solenoid nodes.
should be 0.2 ohms

[ mine showed 10 ohms ]

so an increase resistance than should be ?
it works however ?
what does this.mean ? tis on the way out ?

I am not asking for help now to sort a solenoid simply pointing out an unfortunate truth that a test has failed yet it works ! why ?

[pdqford]

Test 2: fail
Solenoid energised
MM at 200 ohm setting
MM probes between solenoid nodes.
should be 0.2 ohms

[ mine showed 10 ohms ]

so an increase resistance than should be ?
it works however ?
what does this.mean ? tis on the way out ?

I am not asking for help now to sort a solenoid simply pointing out an unfortunate truth that a test has failed yet it works ! why ?

If the battery is connected to one of the lugs you will not get a valid ohms reading.
I mean, how will your ohm meter be able to differentiate between the current supplied by the battery in your ohm
from the current supplied by the bike battery. Now if you disconnected the bikes battery from the solenoid's lug you would
then get a valid ohms reading on the unloaded lugs.

Your starter motor works because enough amps are getting from one lug to the other lug and on to the starter motor.
The starter motor is working with the battery voltage less the voltage dropped across the lugs.
Which means the starter is running with lower voltage than it was designed for, but enough to make it spin.

Now I'm over my pay grade :-)
Low voltage may overheat the armature and or the brushes in the starter motor if too much cranking?

I need some help here!

[tom203]

You’re doing fine …the starter motor circuit is designed to tolerate a battery voltage drop as motor engages…it’s sorta like a brief short circuit!

[ukjules]

first thing this morning failed again.
clicked only .
I am sure I heard however a click only on the starter motor too at same time .

after 5 mins of bridging solenoid posts , pressing key and time it worked. it will prob work all day now.
not ideal and why is this is the question,?

as for the ohms test it is straight off YouTube. I'll find link as the test all do to test a solenoid.
this off the bike mind and energised with a battery.

https://youtu.be/h_vy7DERing?si=OMnuJSiqaoDidoRj

[pdqford]

as for the ohms test it is straight off YouTube. I'll find link as the test all do to test a solenoid.
this off the bike mind and energised with a battery.

https://youtu.be/h_vy7DERing?si=OMnuJSiqaoDidoRj

If you pay attention to which of the two circuits of the solenoid that YouTubeer is testing for resistance, this battery pack is not supplying voltage to the circuit being tested for resistance.with the ohm meter.

[rphillips]

" After 5 min. of bridging solenoid posts". I'm not sure what you're say'in. What happened when you first bridged the posts? did the starter start turning the eng.? Did you leave them bridged for continues 5 min. and nothing happened, starter not turning eng.? If you bridged the posts (for sure 12V to starter) & nothing happened, problem got to be at starter, got to be bad pos. connection at starter, bad ground at starter, or bad starter. Starter grounds through mounting bolts, remove starter cover & be sure the mounting bolts are tight, check for tight connection on Pos. cable.

[uk gs nut]

I think in this situation I would get a new solenoid, remove starter and strip it. Surely with commutator and brushes cleaned if there within specs and a little fresh grease on the bearings all will be good.

[ukjules]

Let's forget this !
Reading from an individual on here that I should pay attention has done it for me.
No he should pay attention and not ever comment such rubbish on my posts again.

Please don't comment again on my posts.

The way is clear ! as UK nut informs !
Consider this post closed.
I won't bother doing detailed analysis on this site again to help others.

[rphillips]

Dang, no need to get stirred up, he didn't just say "PAY ATTENTION", he's just say'in be sure you're pay'in attention to which circuit of the solenoid you are checking, as the 2 different circuits are checked different ways & have completely different readings. Please don't get aggravated with me, but all your tests, as well as the U-Tube guys tests, got me a little confused... I'm way simpler, If you check the voltage on the outlet side of the solenoid while key on and starter button pushed, if you get 12V, the solenoid has done its job, put 12V to the starter, that's all the solenoid ever does. But in your case, sometimes it works & sometimes it don't, you'll need to keep trying it over & over till you see the voltage at the outlet lug both when it cranks and when it don't crank. If you push the button &the lug "gets 12V" but starter doesn't turn eng., the problem got to be Pos. connection at starter, ground at starter, or starter itself. If when pushing the button, starter doesn't turn eng. & you're getting 0V at outlet lug, way most likely a bad solenoid, could be wiring feeding 12V to solenoid, but that would be much rarer.... Be sure, we're just trying to help get your GS up & as reliable as we can.... Good luck.

[pdqford]

Just for future reference I just tested resistance in my 44 year old solenoid.

With the solenoid completely disconnected and laying on the bench, I read 3.5 ohms across the control circuit.

With voltage applied across the control circuit to activate the solenoid, I read 0.1 ohms across the big lugs.

Hope that helps.

[ukjules]

I am gonna continue this thread as so interesting. The question is at the end.

GSX no start issue which came on suddenly and now strains to turn the starter motor 99% of the time -just clicks but may work 1% of the time.
Solenoid seemed fine , bought another and same result.

Anyway had to be down to the starter motor as if energise motor direct in bike it gives exactly the same results.

Removed starter motor and spins every time no probs at all on bench. Clearly must be brushes or dirt.

Dismantled the motor and noticed one of the magnets that is glued to the inside wall of the body was off !! . stuck to the rotor by magnetism and consequently spreading dust whenever the ignition pressed.

So cleaned up (pics attached ) tested commutator and all is fine (ohm tests).
I will clean commutator with 400 wet and dry.

Now these starters are hard to get ! I have a second hand one coming as they are not available now. Had to get one to protect bike.

I desire to fix the original that needs:

- the inner magnet glued back with loctite 325 that Is recommended for motor magnets ? Note in the pic there are raised notches that keep it in correct position one way and I can measure gap for other way. So can be sure in correct location .
and
- know how to replace the brushes ?
pic attached and I can't see how to take out one of the brushes ? one easy one seems impossible.

Q) Do all agree that glueing back with said loctite 325 is the only way open to me.
Q) In pic how on earth do you get one of the brushes out ?
note - brushes both at 10.1mm and ok till 9mm service manual informs so I ask not needing to do if I can't find out . I just can't see a way

[ukjules]

Starter motor brushes. The bottom one in pic ? Top one slides out after removing spring. Bottom one seems connected under plate that is riveted

[ukjules]

Rotor and commutator. This tests fine on all Ohm tests. Will clean commutator with 400 paper.
Note this was black when I opened up the motor.

so 2 questions. what glue and how get the brushes out ?
and has anyone else had luck glueing up their starter motor ?

[ukjules]

Can you believe it .... what I ordered on the right ...
(original on the left)
Thats two balls ups in one month .....

Won't fit ! So its all on the glue on the original