please help me destroy the self canceling unit on my GS850

[d19407]

Hello,

I recently joined the GS ranks by purchasing a 1979 GS850 (US model). It was in poor condition but after throwing $500 at it (mostly engine parts) I seem to be getting somewhere – however I seem to be stuck with a blinker/turn signal problem that I simply want to go away before my head implodes.

It goes something like this: The right signals work just fine but not the left. I have read one of the previous posts describing this very problem. One poster indicated that it was most likely the self canceling unit.

Reference this thread http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=156819

I have checked pretty much everything my limited knowledge of electrics can deal with – including consulting with Tesla himself – but to no avail – everything seems to be wired correctly, the bulbs work and the flasher unit works (re: the right side flash ok so ergo the flasher unit is functioning correctly). I therefore concluded (perhaps foolishly) that it is the self-canceling unit.

So at this stage I have one goal that perhaps someone could help me with.

I would like to disable/remove the self-canceling unit – BEGONE FOUL GADGET!

I realize that this procedure is described in an article posted by BASSCLIFF (truly awesome stuff sir)
Reference this thread http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=156819

However the wiring for my 1979 is different from the one in the BASCLIFF article (1980 GS) – can anyone tell me how I can disable the self-canceling unit on a 1979 model?

I am standing by with wire cutters in hand.

Thanks.

[Redman]

D,

Welcome to GSR.

Usally we can not help any new member untill they post a picture of thier bike.
(am joking, but, introduce yourself in the "Owner's" section.)
But I'll make an exception for you cuz I like 850Gs and I was in Austin last spring (visting our daughter in Sequin)and I can point out my posting related to that:

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=141126&highlight=austin

When you say the right works but the left doesnt - - what is it that the left does? .... and .... what is it the left doesnt do?
And how does that make you suspect the "self cancling unit"?

Other comment:
- There is the flasher unit and there is the control unit. The control unit prerforms more functions that just the "auto cancel". So if you removed the control unit you would need something else to provide the function of keeping the right or the left on. (that would be a differeent discussion).

- You want a color schematic for 78 GS850G? I could scan one for you. It is two 7x10inch pages, but can scan it so prints on one 8.5x11 page. PM your email address to me, if you want.

- but for your information, here is the color/function of each wire at the turn signal control unit:
Blu, from flasher unit.
Blu/Yel, one wire to/from distance sensor
Org/Grn, power from fuse
Blu/Brn, other wire to/from distance sensor
Blk/Wht, Ground
Brn/Yel, from Manual Cancel postion of the switch
Grn, to Right Turn bulb
Blk, to left Turn Bulb
Grn/Blk, from Right postion of the switch
Red/Blk, from Left postion of the swtich

- Is only one flasher. Have only one wire from it at the controller.
Is only one distance sensor. Have both wires to/from it at the controller.

- At first you might think you could remove the control unit and reconenct some of those wires there at the controll unit such that can make turn signals work without the auto canel function (even if have to hold the button over yourself for it to work at all) ... but my conclusion from looking at schematic is that: no, could not. WOuld need some relays, two, maybe three.
Problem is that the flasher unit is powered by some other wire,... and the right-left switch is powered by yet another power wire, neither powered by a wire from the control unit.
So: at the control unit only have one wire comming "from" the flasher and only one wire comming "from" the right switch and one wire comming "from" the left swtich. And as such is no way to wire the flasher in series with the switch. Only have the two wires "from" the switch, dont have the wire "to" the switch available there at the control unit.
With the wires available at the control unit, you could reconnect them such that the right switch turns on the right lights and the left turns on the left lights, but no flasher, and you would have to flash it yourself with the switch, but I dont know if the contacts in the switch have the capacity to handle ths current of the turnsignal bulbs.
This is my conclusion form looking at the scheamatic, not from haveing done it.
(and I often design and/or troubleshoot electrical control wiring at work, and have been for years.)

I say: put the wire cutters away, and lets troubleshoot this further.

Tell us what the left side does and what it does not do. Problem could be somewhere else other than the control unit.

.

[Steve]

As Redman has asked, why are you so sure it's the control unit?

Do the left lights come on and not blink?

Do they not come on at all?

Does one come on, but not both?

Each of those problems might be solved at the lights themselves, not the control unit, so please give us some details on what you see happening, not what you think is wrong.

.

[Redman]

d,

I have emailed you a 850GN color schematic.

Tell us more of the symptoms.

Also tell us if you have a voltmeter or test probe.
Could better troubleshoot this with a voltmeter or test probe along with the colorcode information listed above.

And, yes, there is a big difference between the electrical design of the 79 850 t/signal circuit from the 80 850G.
The 79 has more wires on control unit than 80.
The 79 has less wires on switch than 80.
The 79 has two wires on flasher and the 80 has 3 wire flasher.

.

[SqDancerLynn1]

It's very easy to convert to manual signals. Main thing is to remove the turn signal module. Cut the 4 prong plug off of the module. The original design actually had 4 circuits. Connect the green wire to the Green/black wire and the black wire to the red/black wire. This connects the Rt front to the Rt rear and left front to the left rear. Then plug it back into the harness. You will now have working turn signals BUT will have to hold the switch. So you need to get a manual switch- may or may not need to rewire the replacement switch. Also you may need to rewire the Flasher. The flasher should be in series with the orange wire from the switch to the fuse block. Don't worry about the other plug just leave it disconnected

[d19407]

Wow! Thanks for the fast and comprehensive replies and the welcome. I will introduce myself with pictures (I have many) later today…and I put the wire cutters back in the toolbox as per your request - which is probably a good idea.

Thanks for the color wiring diagram – I picked that up this morning from e-mail - thanks. Way easier to understand than the standard b/w maze in my book.

As for your questions I realize I should have posted more details – sorry, my bad.

So…The details are as follows:

The right side blinkers work correctly, that is they flash on and off when the handlebar switch is moved to the right. As far as I can tell they operate correctly. However because I have the top off the engine I can not ride the bike to ensure the self-cancelling unit operates as it should – i.e. cancels the blinkers at speed (am I correct in saying that’s how it works?). It should be noted the manual cancel (pressing down on the turn switch) does not work – the small slither of metal in the switch that makes that work is missing – (yes I broke it).

I have traced all the wires with a multimeter and they seem to make a circuit – note here that what I mean is that I’m pretty sure that there are no breaks in the wires.

I have traced the wires as per the wiring schema and all looks good – by that I mean that the right colored wires join at the appropriate place…again remember I’m an amateur at this electrical stuff. Please feel free to highlight my naiveté and guide me as appropriate – you wont hurt my feelings.

So to the real problem at hand – the left side. If I move the switch to left I get nothing. It does not flash at all. The lights do not come on at all. The left does not even flash once and there is no click at the flasher unit.

I have the left switch open and partly disassembled (or dismembered is perhaps a better term). I did this to check all was functioning correctly. If I bypass the switch mechanism – i.e. join/connect the wires on the back of the switch plate it works for the right but not the left.

I crossed the connections on the blinkers (connected the left lamps to the right circuit) and I can confirm that the left lamps do flash when crossed wired when I move the switch to right (hopefully that makes sense).

As for the self-canceling unit – I opened it and cut the back off (photo included in this post) so that the top section (the circuit board) is exposed (its not destroyed – I just cut the top part off the case so I could see the circuit board ) – I ran the multimeter across the circuit board connections and they all seem to work. However as you may already know the guts of the unit is encased in plastic so I cannot access that part of it.

I stuck a multimeter on the signal flasher unit wire (one connector in the orange/green wire and one to earth) and I read 14 volts at all times – regardless of the turn signal switch position.

So there is one more point here that I think I need to highlight – at some point the bike has been in a wreck – not a bad one but I see signs of it all over the bike – broken tachometer, a cracked headlight cover, small dint in the tank etc – I’m not sure if that has relevance.

Ok so that’s all I can think of – I’m ready to try anything at this point – any help is very welcome.

[Redman]

Seems like you are doing a good job of trouble shooting, and you have a good understanding of things.

You said you measured voltage from the flasher blue wire and it was the 12vdc. That is good. It doesnt flash untill it gets the current draw thru it. The current thru it heats up this thingamabob and that makes it turn off, and it stays off untill it cools down. Repeat.

.........
I have the left switch open and partly disassembled (or dismembered is perhaps a better term). I did this to check all was functioning correctly. If I bypass the switch mechanism – i.e. join/connect the wires on the back of the switch plate it works for the right but not the left.
....
.

That right there sounds like a conclusive test - a very good troubleshooting techenique - substitution. You are sustituting the left switch with a jumper, and things still do not work. So that proves that the problem is not the switch. Assuming there is only one problem (not multiple problem) the switch is not the problem.

(A better test would be more of a functional test by measuring voltage when you operate the switch.)

........
.........
I crossed the connections on the blinkers (connected the left lamps to the right circuit) and I can confirm that the left lamps do flash when crossed wired when I move the switch to right (hopefully that makes sense).
....
....
.

THis is also a good troubleshooting test, this proves that the left lamps would light if they were powered. And we know that they are supposed to be powered by the control unit. So we can conclude that the control unit is not putting out the power.
But ..... is the control unit not putting out the power because it cant (beacuse it is defective),
... or is the control unit not putting out the power because it didnt get the signal that it should?

Good that you have a multimeter and are using it.
Would be better to troubleshoot things by measuing voltage at various places while switching the switch.

Lets test a few things at the control unit , by using the meter to measure voltage. Can measure voltage on the wires with the connectors connected by shoving/inserting the meter probe into the back of the plastic connector body untill comes in contact with the metal connector. If your meter probes are too big/thick you can get a smaller piece of stiff wire (like a paper clip) to stick in there.

At the wiring harness from the control unit; lets measure voltage from ground (blk/wht wire) to the brn/blk wire for the right switch when you switch the switch to and from the right. And then at the green wire for the right lamps. This was just a practice test to get familiar with how it should be (and check that meter is connected/set properly).
(I am refereing to the color of the wire at the control unit side of the connector, as I see the color on color schematic. Note that there maybe be different color wire on the other side of the connector; the bike wiring harness side of the connector.)
(And note that how I interperet/describe what color I see on the schematic might not exaclty match how you interpert what you see on the wires, which is why some folks dont like the color schematics. But anyway.... back to troubleshooting....)

Now, for the real test: Then do same for the red/blk for the left switch when switch to and from the left. See if you get the 12vdc from the switch, this is to see if the control module gets the signal that it SHOULD operate the left. Then do the same for the black wire to see control unit IS putting out the power to operate the left.
Then you can determine if the control units is seeing the voltage from the switch or not. If its not; then trace along back to switch to see where loosing it. If the control unit is seeing the voltage from the switch, but the control unit not putting out the voltage to the lamps, well, then, yup, the control unit is the problem.

If you find the control unit is the problem. And/or if have any conversation about replacing or removing the control unit:
Keep in mind that the 79 control unit has 4 wires on one connector and 6 wires on another connector (as I see on schematic, not from personal experience). And a 1980 (and after) controll unit has 6 wires on a connector and a seperate ground wire. And the entire circuit is different, the flasher is different, the swtich is different. Any discussion about most any part of this will be different weither its a 79/ prior or if its a 80/after.

Tell us more what you find.

.

[Redman]

To yammer on some more:
I prefere to use the color schematic when trying to understand some circuit. Is easier to follow a wire acrost the page.
When actaully working on the bike I prefere the black and white schematic.

Oh, and would be good if you added your model and year of bike in signature line, so folks know what year/model you are talking about more readily. Specifically in your case of having a 1979.
(was many design changes between 79 and 80 in most modles including 850G).

.

[SqDancerLynn1]

DOn't waist your time trying to fix it. Just convert the 79 module, was always a problem and is around $400 to replace it
cheap auto flasher works fine..

[d19407]

Hi,

To all, thanks again for the info - I am tempted to just do a replace as suggested but I would like to run the tests on the box suggested by Redman first before I take that step.

Sorry I can't help but be curious - however I feel that ultimatley I will have to rip it out and replace with a stock flasher as suggested by SqDancerLynn1 but lets see.

Ok so I'm off to give this a try. I'll post the results later - cheers.

Also, I posted an intro for those interested and some photos here : http://s816.photobucket.com/albums/zz83/d19407/GS850/

Back soon.

[Redman]

Yes, Troubleshoot to see if control unit not getting the the signal/voltage from the switch, or if the control unit is defective.

I see that you are working on a few things other than the turn signals.

(as described in your introduction in the Owners section. Thanks).
.
.
.

[d19407]

Ok - I can confirm that I am getting power at the control unit - 12 volts for both the left and right switch positions - therefore I think we can safely conclude it is indeed the control unit.

So I attempted to bypass the unit as per SQDancerLynn1 by connecting the green wire to the green/black wire and the black wire to the red/black wire.

For the right side - that worked ok but for the left side the signals came on but do not flash. I checked this a couple of times with the same result :

Right side still work just fine with the bypass.
Left side come one but DO NOT flash with the bypass

Could this also be a problem with the flasher unit?

Thanks, Andy.

[Steve]

You already mentioned that when you turn on the right side, you can not cancel it manually?

Sounds like a bad switch. If that part of the switch is bad, maybe the contacts for the left signal are bad, too.

I have not examined the differences with the '79 system, but in the '80-and-newer systems, the switch has a spring-loaded position at the end of its travel. That last, momentary position is what is necessary to turn on the flasher unit. If that's not working, the signals won't work. The '79 signals might not work that way, I don't know.

.

[d19407]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the post.

I have the switch apart so I am not actually using the switching mechanism - I am manually making a connection between the wires using a small screw driver. I did this to ensure it was not a failure at the switch.

When I make the connections at the wires it flashes the right side no problem but the left side does not, however it does light up both bulbs front and back for the left - just not flashing.

This is with the bypass wiring I mentioned in my earlier post.

And now I'm thinking about it, if the flashing unit (not the control unit) will flash the right side so I'm thinking that it can not be a problem with the flashing unit - by that I mean it works for one side but not the other.

Perplexing!

Regards, Andy.

[Redman]

Congratulations, You have troubleshot it and proved that the control unit is seeing what it should, and the control unit is not functioning as it should.

..
.. Connect the green wire to the Green/black wire and the black wire to the red/black wire. This connects the Rt front to the Rt rear and left front to the left rear. ...

... here is the color/function of each wire at the turn signal control unit:
...
Grn, to Right Turn bulb (front and rear)
Blk, to left Turn Bulbs (front and rear)
Grn/Blk, from Right postion of the switch
Red/Blk, from Left postion of the swtich
..
.

Some comments:
1) There is some difference between how Lynn has described the wires and how I interperte the Clymer (3rd edition, March 1988) schematic that I am looking at.
Maybe someone can compare to a Suzuki schematic.
Could hook it up as Lynn suggests, and would be "all manaul" as Lynn stated.

2a) If you did reconnect the four wires from the 4 wire connector as Lynn suggest, (which you could, and should work - some) I would describe what you would then have this way:
- Would have Right switch connected directly to to the right bulbs.
- Would have Left Switch connected diresctly to the left bulbs.
- Flasher not at all in the circuit.
- The cancel button not at all in the circuit.
- The T/signals now powered by the switch which is powered by the Headlight fuse circuit. Would be adding the current of the t/signals to the head light fuse. A problem on t/signals circuit could blow the headlight fuse.
- The T/signals now not powered by the control unit which is on the Brake/Signal fuse.
- And it would not matter if you did or did not plug in the 6 wire connector to the control unit (since the bulbs nor the switch are connectred to it).

2b) If you did connect as Lynn suggest, I would think
(from looking at schematic, not from experience) that it would work but would be entirely manaul (as Lynn stated). No flash, you have to flash it yourself with the switch.

3) But you say you have connected per Lynn suggestion, and the right flashes but the left doesnt.
AH, er, lets ignor the fact that I dont understand how connected this way it will ever flash.
but, ah, er,
Talking about the flasher in general, and talking about the flasher in the typical stock wiring:
I can say the the flasher falshes based on how much current flows through it. The more current, the faster it heats up. SO if it flashed differnt speed/rate/time on right than it does on left then can say that the current is different on right than on left, as in on side has different type of bulb(s) or one side has 2 good bulbs and other side has only one, or one side has a bad connection somehwere. Often if one of the two bulbs on a side is burnt out the flasher doesnt flash on that side.

4) And you definatly have a 79. Not that this has been questioned, but I did ponder the possibilty.
I see in picture it has a kickstarter and chrome fender, so yep, 79.