They Dont call it "Sparks and Magic" for Nuttn

[posplayr]

Jim modern sportbikes use alternators. Which is also part and parcel as to why they can spin up to such absurd rpms. ( along with modern components etc). My point was merely that you are trying to change something that seemed to work well enough for 20 or 30 or more thousand miles. Hell my es still has the original factory stator in it and it's fast approaching 50 thousand miles. Still charging fine. FET regulator and all. If your new stator lasts half that long for $120 bucks or whatever it was you're doing pretty well. I've had car alternators crap out on me faster. If you don't think I spin my bike up to seven grand or more on a regular basis, you haven't been to Kentucky or West Virginia or southern indiana. ride more. Worry less. If it bugs you that much carry a spare. You're letting the engineer in you eat you up
and btw. You know what your oil pressure is at the gallery and or at the gauge. A plugged port elsewhere will only increase it in a small amount. 3lbs of pressure isn't much to keep track of.
Don't mistake me. It's your bike, your mind that you have to settle and all that. Normally I'm hot on your coat tails with your latest fix or fidgit, but this, this is a whole nother bag of worms. But I'm no engineer so what do I know?

Josh,
Thanks for your concern. Rest assured I'm not going to blow a fuse doing GS electrics. If anything this is relaxing and therapeutic for me. I;m used to doing much more complicated things that this. In fact would be against my nature to not do something about about a 600 degree stator.

My first stator only lasted 8K miles and that was really over my first 2 years riding with out the GSXR conversion. Now one trip out (250 miles) and I notice my needles bouncing more which I suspect is load/source imbalance due to shorted windings. It gets very hot/too hot for my liking. The stater-oiler is already in and I still have plenty (if not too much) pressure. Lord knows I got plenty of pressure even with a warm engine reving to 8K will pin the pressure guage.

Jim

[mawg]

Please forgive me if this is a dumb question, but what effect do you think using smaller magnets in the rotor would be- less lines of flux= less induced voltage? and I agree ,it would be interesting to see a comparison of the heating between wye and delta wound stators .

[TheCafeKid]

Josh,
Thanks for your concern. Rest assured I'm not going to blow a fuse doing GS electrics. If anything this is relaxing and therapeutic for me. I;m used to doing much more complicated things that this. In fact would be against my nature to not do something about about a 600 degree stator.

My first stator only lasted 8K miles and that was really over my first 2 years riding with out the GSXR conversion. Now one trip out (250 miles) and I notice my needles bouncing more which I suspect is load/source imbalance due to shorted windings. It gets very hot/too hot for my liking. The stater-oiler is already in and I still have plenty (if not too much) pressure. Lord knows I got plenty of pressure even with a warm engine reving to 8K will pin the pressure guage.

Jim

Well that must be the difference between You and I my friend. I H A T E electrical crap. I hate messing with the wiring. Even though I now have a fair understanding of these harnesses after tearing into a couple, I still dont like it, and it's far from theraputic. I'd rather rebuild a motor than fix an electrical issue. Let me ask though, just to satisfy my own curiosity, how did you wire (as in path) your R/R? Did you get rid of the RED harness wire and go straight to the battery? Bypass the crimp?

I know Dan was saying that if running inline to the battery, with a fuse, he suggested a 30amp fuse, as he was blowing a 20amper. I have run a 20amp fuse inline to the battery for nearly 2000 miles now, half of which as been at higher revs and its still there. No probs.

And, on your pic above with the kawi and zook stators... I have never seen a stock zook stator with that blue coating on it. They all look just like the one from the kawi with the brown coating. Not saying they didnt do that, just wondering if youre certain that was a stock stator?

[bonanzadave]

O T Alert

While youre in there playing with magnets how about inventing a magnetic side cover mount . I nearly lost one yesterday when the low rent velcro got hot and the glue let loose. Friggin broken tabs.

[TheCafeKid]

While youre in there playing with magnets how about inventing a magnetic side cover mount . I nearly lost one yesterday when the low rent velcro got hot and the glue let loose. Friggin broken tabs.

Actually Dave, Jim came up with a quite ingenious way of repairing said broken tabs with aluminum stock made into NEW tabs. They're so strong, he broke all the OEM tabs off his good covers on purpose to replace them with this setup.. I dont have a link handy but do a search and it should come up..

[Skateguy50]

You just need to run the highbeams when at high rpms

[mawg]

I don't think thats gonna help,as the problem,as I understand it is heat. As RPM rises the stator produces more voltage/current, witch is either used by the load or shunted to ground by the regulator/rectifier assembly.So the heat is still produced. What POSplayer is trying to do is (I think) reduce the output at higher revs,= less heat.Thats why I wonder weather a different rotor with smaller magnets would work, but I don't know if thats even possible. Another thought, would it be possible to weld material to the central boss the stator fits over,then machine some slots or angles like a 12 point socket to act as a heat sink?Or maybe a finned stator cover? POSplayer, I too spend alot of time or the high side of 6k revs,so I'm interested to see what soulition you can come up with.Good luck!

[BassCliff]

You just need to run the highbeams when at high rpms

Hi,

I run my high beams all the time, especially during the day. I've been considering replacing my incandescent turn signals with superbright LEDs. But if I need to burn off the extra current then perhaps this isn't such a good idea.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

[posplayr]

This has been a busy week but I do have an update from a ride I made out to Tehachapi to see Bill and Kris start up the 1230. Before making the 360 mile round trip from the coast at Santa Barbara, over the mountains to about 4500 ft on the twisty turny Hwy 33, then across the flat San Joaquin Valley south of Bakersfield and then one more climb to 4000 ft at Tehachapi. Temps on the coast were mile (mid 70's), the Temp in the central valley ranges from low 90's to just over 100 degF south of Bako. This route was 180 miles one way.

This almost deserves another thread, but I'll add this here.

The primary change to the bike was to add GregB's distribution block with where I adapted the my old tope end oiler to fit with my oil gauge and the original oil temp gauge and switch. What I added as shown before was a oil cooler line in an attempt to improve cooling to the stator. Here are the basic results.


A.) The bike ran cooler than it ever did even when it was stock which was before installation of the 1166 kit. Yes there was probably a 20-30 degF rise in running temperature (say from 240 to 270) for a relatively warm 85 degrees ambient between stock and 1166. With the oil line spraying the rotor/stator my temperature never got over 210 degrees and this was despite the climb and 90-100 degF temperatures

My oil pressure was slightly reduced but still healthy. There is a restrictor in the line (maybe 1mm of a brass standard fitting) and I have the high performance gears.
The pressure appeared to be pretty consistently reading PSI=2*KRPM. That means I would get the following pressures pretty consistently while monitoring during the ride.

RPM KRPM Pressure-Psi
2500 2.5 5
5000 5.0 10
7500 7.5 15
The gauge pegs somewhere above the 15 psi mark.

I don’t know if there could be further temperature improvement by letting more oil flow, for the time being until I get better lines I'm not going to experiment with it.


I think this is remarkable but am not sure as to how much of the improvement is due to cooling of the stator of to improved oil flow due to higher volume and therefore more opportunity for cooling. What it does suggest is that if you get a high performance gears and don't have a top end oiler but do add a cooler, you may in fact not improve the cooling at all.

The charging seemed to improve somewhat which I can only attribute to a cooler stator which is able to actually increase it's output at higher RPM's over 5K. While this is not necessarily needed, it shows that cooling to the stator is likely to have improved.

As part of trying to explain why the engine is running slower, I did some horsepower calculations. To keep it simple approx 750 watts is 1 horsepower. Depending upon the configuration we could use a rule of thumb of 1 watt per RPM. So at 7.5K rpm the stator requires 10 Hp to rotate. When it really only takes 250 watts max to power the electrical which is less than 4% of the load being put on the engine.

I spoke to Kris's brother that came to his house. Both these guys have been working and playing with bikes since they were teen agers. He said he had implemented a series regulator years ago for a Harley. I'm looking forward to seen the schematic. In the mean time I've been looking at easy ways to implement a series regulator using some modern devices. The primary benefit of teh series regulator is that when the voltage gets too high, it opens up the windings in the stator which does not allow any current to flow (Y configuration only). If there is no current flow then there is no back EMF and so no load on the motor. It is like trying to drink from a fire hose. U only need 4% of the total power capacity at 7500 RPM. The shunt regulator is the equivalent of using two screw drivers to short your wall circuit when you want to dim your lights. Yes you dim the lights but the wiring in the wall is pulling a whole lot of current. Shunt regulators are cheap brute force devices.

My plan is to have a prototype by the time we go to Bruce's for teh Western States ralley. Bruce is planning on having $20 dyno runs so it woudl be a real eye opener to see a 10 hp change by just swaping out the R/R.

[posplayr]

While youre in there playing with magnets how about inventing a magnetic side cover mount . I nearly lost one yesterday when the low rent velcro got hot and the glue let loose. Friggin broken tabs.

works well.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?p=1223637#post1223637

[posplayr]

If you are following this thread then go and answer this poll.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=160651

[Greg B]

I really like this idea. Reminds me of the early oil cooled GSX-Rs. Using directed oil jets for cooling. I wonder if you could put multiple oil outputs inside the stator cover for even better cooling. Might not be enough room.
I'm probably going to do this on my 1150. I work out in Corona, and in the summer temps get well into the 100s. My charging system seems to be working correctly, at least by running all the standard checks.

[posplayr]

I really like this idea. Reminds me of the early oil cooled GSX-Rs. Using directed oil jets for cooling. I wonder if you could put multiple oil outputs inside the stator cover for even better cooling. Might not be enough room.
I'm probably going to do this on my 1150. I work out in Corona, and in the summer temps get well into the 100s. My charging system seems to be working correctly, at least by running all the standard checks.

I had considered running internal piping that you would not even see and multiple jets. In the end it seemed more reliable not introduce another thing that could break off inside. The single feed itself is restricted. I drilled into the cover using grease to catch the filings. The rotor is very close and so I ground the end of the NPT fitting to insure clearance. So I would say I'm spraying the spinning rotor as much as the stator so adding additional ones may not have as much additional benefit especially when considering the external clutter.

The real trick will be to get a series regulator and pick up extra 10 hp.

[Mysuzyq]

This has been a busy week but I do have an update from a ride I made out to Tehachapi to see Bill and Kris start up the 1230. Before making the 360 mile round trip from the coast at Santa Barbara, over the mountains to about 4500 ft on the twisty turny Hwy 33, then across the flat San Joaquin Valley south of Bakersfield and then one more climb to 4000 ft at Tehachapi. Temps on the coast were mile (mid 70's), the Temp in the central valley ranges from low 90's to just over 100 degF south of Bako. This route was 180 miles one way.

This almost deserves another thread, but I'll add this here.

The primary change to the bike was to add GregB's distribution block with where I adapted the my old tope end oiler to fit with my oil gauge and the original oil temp gauge and switch. What I added as shown before was a oil cooler line in an attempt to improve cooling to the stator. Here are the basic results.


A.) The bike ran cooler than it ever did even when it was stock which was before installation of the 1166 kit. Yes there was probably a 20-30 degF rise in running temperature (say from 240 to 270) for a relatively warm 85 degrees ambient between stock and 1166. With the oil line spraying the rotor/stator my temperature never got over 210 degrees and this was despite the climb and 90-100 degF temperatures

My oil pressure was slightly reduced but still healthy. There is a restrictor in the line (maybe 1mm of a brass standard fitting) and I have the high performance gears.
The pressure appeared to be pretty consistently reading PSI=2*KRPM. That means I would get the following pressures pretty consistently while monitoring during the ride.

RPM KRPM Pressure-Psi
2500 2.5 5
5000 5.0 10
7500 7.5 15
The gauge pegs somewhere above the 15 psi mark.

I don’t know if there could be further temperature improvement by letting more oil flow, for the time being until I get better lines I'm not going to experiment with it.


I think this is remarkable but am not sure as to how much of the improvement is due to cooling of the stator of to improved oil flow due to higher volume and therefore more opportunity for cooling. What it does suggest is that if you get a high performance gears and don't have a top end oiler but do add a cooler, you may in fact not improve the cooling at all.

The charging seemed to improve somewhat which I can only attribute to a cooler stator which is able to actually increase it's output at higher RPM's over 5K. While this is not necessarily needed, it shows that cooling to the stator is likely to have improved.

As part of trying to explain why the engine is running slower, I did some horsepower calculations. To keep it simple approx 750 watts is 1 horsepower. Depending upon the configuration we could use a rule of thumb of 1 watt per RPM. So at 7.5K rpm the stator requires 10 Hp to rotate. When it really only takes 250 watts max to power the electrical which is less than 4% of the load being put on the engine.

I spoke to Kris's brother that came to his house. Both these guys have been working and playing with bikes since they were teen agers. He said he had implemented a series regulator years ago for a Harley. I'm looking forward to seen the schematic. In the mean time I've been looking at easy ways to implement a series regulator using some modern devices. The primary benefit of teh series regulator is that when the voltage gets too high, it opens up the windings in the stator which does not allow any current to flow (Y configuration only). If there is no current flow then there is no back EMF and so no load on the motor. It is like trying to drink from a fire hose. U only need 4% of the total power capacity at 7500 RPM. The shunt regulator is the equivalent of using two screw drivers to short your wall circuit when you want to dim your lights. Yes you dim the lights but the wiring in the wall is pulling a whole lot of current. Shunt regulators are cheap brute force devices.

My plan is to have a prototype by the time we go to Bruce's for teh Western States ralley. Bruce is planning on having $20 dyno runs so it woudl be a real eye opener to see a 10 hp change by just swaping out the R/R.

When you speak about the bike now running cooler, I'm assuming you are going by the temp gauge, which is indicating the oil temp. By cooling the stator via additional flow, the heat is being exchanged and absorbed by the oil.....the only way (as I see it) to achieve a cooler oil temp is to increase the oil-cooler capacity/efficiency where it is cooled by forced convection, or to reduce heat at the source (the engine). With no other mods except adding a line to bathe the stator, I'm curious as to the reason for a 50 degree drop in temps.
Also not understanding your statement that adding a cooler might not actually help cooling, without also adding a top-end oiler......regardless of stock or high-vol gears used, simply adding a heat-exchanger in the oil path loop should & will achieve reduced temps, provided the bike is moving, no?

As for the dyno 10 hp experiment, two runs, with the stator connected & disconnected might reveal the actual hp difference even with stock RR....I think the difference may be a couple hp, 10 would be great!

[posplayr]

When you speak about the bike now running cooler, I'm assuming you are going by the temp gauge, which is indicating the oil temp. By cooling the stator via additional flow, the heat is being exchanged and absorbed by the oil.....the only way (as I see it) to achieve a cooler oil temp is to increase the oil-cooler capacity/efficiency where it is cooled by forced convection, or to reduce heat at the source (the engine). With no other mods except adding a line to bathe the stator, I'm curious as to the reason for a 50 degree drop in temps.
Also not understanding your statement that adding a cooler might not actually help cooling, without also adding a top-end oiler......regardless of stock or high-vol gears used, simply adding a heat-exchanger in the oil path loop should & will achieve reduced temps, provided the bike is moving, no?

As for the dyno 10 hp experiment, two runs, with the stator connected & disconnected might reveal the actual hp difference even with stock RR....I think the difference may be a couple hp, 10 would be great!

Yes I'm relying on the stock ED Oil Temp gauge. Only diff is I have moved the sensor location to GregB's distribution block. By the gauge I have dropped from about 270 to 210 so I'm calling that 50 degrees. I did not have a the Showchrome before when going through hot conditions but it would at least get to that temp.

While I'm sure teh stator is running cooler, I'm not attribting the whole temp drop to that. The theory is that with the hi po gears there is not sufficent flow because the system is relatively restricted making the pump work real hard and heat the oil. Without the bleeder I'm running at 12-15 PSI most of the time and then if I get on it who knows.

With the bleeder there is more oil circulation. Yes keeps the stator cooler but also more oil flow. This is theory, but it is hard to argue with the gauge. The gauge was recently replaced by me and both it and sensor were checked to be within factory specs.

A Oil cooler is probably good for the stock oil pump, but with the Hipo gears maybe adding restriction unless you go for 8AN lines. Bottom line bike seems happier/cooler with less oil pressure. I'm using stock 550 hoses (IIRC about 5/16"). Bleeded made a big diff in temp that is for sure, just not exactly sure why

Well if my calculations above are correct then 10 hp is conservative (10 hp = 7500 Watts)

Also yes, back to back tests will be most convincing. A working prototype would be even more so than simply pulling the r/r.