Starter circuit problem URGENT

[posplayr]

If i run the starter direct off the battery there is no problem. The starter has been recently rebuilt and is in perfect working order.

I know the problem is a short because with a mulitmeter i get a connection from both the positive circuit and earth circuit through the starter solinoid singal wire when the start button is depressed.

Sorry, you are still not making any sense. A multi meter has multiple settings . Cant tell if you are measuring resistance or voltage? Also dont know what positive circuit or earth circuit is because as the name implies "circuit" you need both.

If the starter is good, It sounds like there is some thing wrong with the solenoid.

Have you tried a screw driver across the top of the solenoid? to short from battery (+) to starter (+)?

[Counterpoint]

Multimeter was set to test resistance and shows that both positive and negative are shorting in the same circuit which is only meant to meet the earth at the solenoid to activate it (solenoid works 100%) and at the starter motor.

I worded that positive/earth circuit badly sorry.

Its a brand new solenoid and shorting the solenoid does fix the problem (momentarily) as there is no earth signal being sent through to the solenoid signal wire.

[posplayr]

Multimeter was set to test resistance and shows that both positive and negative are shorting in the same circuit which is only meant to meet the earth at the solenoid to activate it (solenoid works 100%) and at the starter motor.

I worded that positive/earth circuit badly sorry.

Its a brand new solenoid and shorting the solenoid does fix the problem (momentarily) as there is no earth signal being sent through to the solenoid signal wire.

A few questions?

1. So when you shorted across the two large terminals on the solenoid, the starter turns over?
2. You have a new solenoid?
3. Your main cable from the battery to the solenoid gets hot when you push the start button but the starter does not crank?

This doesnt make much sense if you answer yes to all of the above.

I should mention that the way a solenoid works is that the electromagnet, that causes the main shorting bar to close, (that shorts between the main terminals) closes when the green/yellow wire is powered with +12V. The current flows through the solenoid coil and requires the negative side of the coil is grounded (by the frame) to provide the current return path.

Another point is that you have to be very careful doing resistance tests when there is a battery connected to the circuit. Generally you can't do a resistance test if there is voltage present.

[Counterpoint]

Yes to all of your questions, no battery we connected and im aware of how a solenoid works. This is why i posted for help because it doesnt add up...

[Redman]

...
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.....there is no earth signal being sent through to the solenoid signal wire.

...
....
....This is why i posted for help because it doesnt add up...

No polite way to say this: but, yes, it doesnt all add up .... what you are saying doesnt make sense.


Your statements about it should be "sending an earth signal to the soleniod" does not make any sence because that is not how it is suppose to work. (and the confusion not because because of calling it "earth" verses "negitive" verses "ground").
Is going to be difficult to determine what is abnormal, if you dont understand what is normal.

It will be hard to determine what is not working properly if you do not understand how it IS suppose to work.
I will repeat what I have stated before twice, but say it differently.
It is suppose to work this way:
Fuse puts power+ to the kill switch.
Then Kill switch puts power+ to the starter button (and the ignition).
Then Starter button puts power+ to the clutch swtich.
Then Clutch switch puts power+ to the solenoid.
The solenoid itself is mounted to the battery box which IS the ground-earth-negitive connection to the battery negitive (this requires that the battery box is in fact well grounded, which sometimes it is not and can be a problem, but not the problem you describe).

(I am assuming you have stock wiring. And if its not stock wiring, it is at least a negitive ground system.
Only positive ground system I have ever seen was on british & sweedisch & german cars from 50-60-70 years ago).

I think your bike had two problem that need to be investigated:
- why it draws high amps (heats up the wire, you say) but does not pull in the solenoid
and
- why the high amps doesnt blow the fuse.

Lets start with the high amps and solenoid not pulling in.
One way to troubleshoot a short circuit to ground (or other ecxessive high current) is to start at the intended load, the solenoid in this case, and dissconnect things one at a time, working your way back to the power source.
So, Disconnect the wire to the solenoid and hit the button (clutch swtich, ignition switch and all that) see if the high amps goes away, if it does go away it was the solenoid itself that was drawing all the amps.
If the amps dont go away, then you know it is something else along the way such as a short circuit to ground somewhere along the wiring or at one of the devices. So then go back to the clutch switch and disconnect that ... ... .... then maybe work your way to the starter button.

.

[posplayr]

No polite way to say this: but, yes, it doesnt all add up .... what you are saying doesnt make sense.


Your statements about it should be "sending an earth signal to the soleniod" does not make any sence because that is not how it is suppose to work. (and the confusion not because because of calling it "earth" verses "negitive" verses "ground").
Is going to be difficult to determine what is abnormal, if you dont understand what is normal.

It will be hard to determine what is not working properly if you do not understand how it IS suppose to work.
I will repeat what I have stated before twice, but say it differently.
It is suppose to work this way:
Fuse puts power+ to the kill switch.
Then Kill switch puts power+ to the starter button (and the ignition).
Then Starter button puts power+ to the clutch swtich.
Then Clutch switch puts power+ to the solenoid.
The solenoid itself is mounted to the battery box which IS the ground-earth-negitive connection to the battery negitive (this requires that the battery box is in fact well grounded, which sometimes it is not and can be a problem, but not the problem you describe).

(I am assuming you have stock wiring. And if its not stock wiring, it is at least a negitive ground system.
Only positive ground system I have ever seen was on british & sweedisch & german cars from 50-60-70 years ago).

I think your bike had two problem that need to be investigated:
- why it draws high amps (heats up the wire, you say) but does not pull in the solenoid
and
- why the high amps doesnt blow the fuse.

Lets start with the high amps and solenoid not pulling in.
One way to troubleshoot a short circuit to ground (or other ecxessive high current) is to start at the intended load, the solenoid in this case, and dissconnect things one at a time, working your way back to the power source.
So, Disconnect the wire to the solenoid and hit the button (clutch swtich, ignition switch and all that) see if the high amps goes away, if it does go away it was the solenoid itself that was drawing all the amps.
If the amps dont go away, then you know it is something else along the way such as a short circuit to ground somewhere along the wiring or at one of the devices. So then go back to the clutch switch and disconnect that ... ... .... then maybe work your way to the starter button.

.

Forgetting any theory for the moment, if we take those three tests as good this is sounding more and more like a defective solenoid.

• If the screwdriver test drives the motor, the the primary cables are sufficent to run the starter motor.
• If the primary cable from the battery gets hot when activating the solenoid then the solenoid is shorting and is defective.

Replace the solenoid or disassemble and investigate.

Is solenoid OEM or off of another application?

[Redman]

...
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The positive battey terminal wire gets the hottest.

...
....

Oh,
Ah,

All previous discussions were about the starter solenoid circuit, as if the solenoid was not picking up........

BY this you are saying the positve battery terminal is getting hot. Is that what you ment previously by a wire getting hot? I thought you ment a wire in the starter button starter soleniod was getting hot. All your statements about checking this and checking that was about checking the starter button starter solenoid circuit.

Maybe your starter button starer solenoid circuit (the small wires) is okay.

And your problem is more in the starter motor circuit (the thick wires) or the starter motor itself.

You started the posting by asking questions about the starter button starter solenoid circuit, so we assumed that is where your problem is.

There are two somewhat seperate circuits here. Each that need to be concidered seperatly. One circuit is the starter button starter solenoid circuit (thin wires). Other circuit is the main battery cable starter to solenoid (thick wires) to starter motor circuit.

ANy problem in the starter button starter solenoid curcuit (thin wires) that would heat up the battery cable would/should blow a fuse.

The starter motor (thick wires) circuit is not fused.

Back to what was asked before:
When you hit the starter button (with kill switch in run, and clutch pulled in) does the solenoid click? If so then the starter button starter solenoid is working.

Have you tried jumping the battery+ to the starter motor by jumpering acrost the two big terminals on the starter solenoid with a jumper cable? And if the starter motor runs, then the solenoid must have been bad.
If the motor doesnt run but still have the high amps heating the battery cable,
- maybe bad connection of battery cable (try cleaning the connection)
- or maybe the solenoid is shorting to ground (try disconnecting starter motor and see if still high amps)
- or maybe the starter is bad,

.

[posplayr]

Oh,
Have you tried jumping the battery+ to the starter motor by jumpering acrost the two big terminals on the starter solenoid with a jumper cable?

And if the starter motor runs,

He answered that before and the motor does run

then the solenoid must have been bad.

Apparently

[Redman]

Yep, he did one time say when jumper the solenoid everything is okay. So then would think the starter motor is okay.

Now that we know the "hot wire" is the battery cable (not the starter button starter solenoid circuit), and knowing he said hot wire was only when hit the starter button (and kill swith in run and clutch pulled in), that would seem like the starter button starter solenoid is okay and the solenoid is pulling in. So we can ignor all the talk of this and that earthing out in the starter button circuit.

So it seems that the starter solenoid is pulling in, but that is only half of the soenoids function. It seems it is the other half of the solenoids function that has a problem.

.

[tom203]

Yep, he did one time say when jumper the solenoid everything is okay. So then would think the starter motor is okay.

Now that we know the "hot wire" is the battery cable (not the starter button starter solenoid circuit), and knowing he said hot wire was only when hit the starter button (and kill swith in run and clutch pulled in), that would seem like the starter button starter solenoid is okay and the solenoid is pulling in. So we can ignor all the talk of this and that earthing out in the starter button circuit.

So it seems that the starter solenoid is pulling in, but that is only half of the soenoids function. It seems it is the other half of the solenoids function that has a problem.

.

Strange- if the solenoid clicks in , but doesn't pass current to starter motor, that current load should fry the solenoid.

[posplayr]

Strange- if the solenoid clicks in , but doesn't pass current to starter motor, that current load should fry the solenoid.

The only plausible explanation I can find is somehow the solenoid shorting bar is grounding out when the solenoid is energized. This assumes that the anwsers to the three questions are being reported correctly

[Counterpoint]

OK. A simple one. If im testing for resistance with a multi meter and i put one probe onto the wire that leads towards the starter button from the solenoid ((with the solenoid disconnected)(yellow/green)) and the other on the negative wire that connects to the battery terminal or any part of the frame for that matter (without the battery installed) and i press the starter button with the switch set to on and the clutch pulled in should i get a reading that indicated a complete circuit or should only the positive battery wire complete the circuit?

And just to add, rebuilt starter in perfect working order, brand new OEM solenoid.
Also If i short the thin wire on the solenoid to the power feed direct from the battery the solenoid does engage and the starter turns fine. giving the conclusion that the starter and solenoid both work fine.

[posplayr]

OK. A simple one. If im testing for resistance with a multi meter and i put one probe onto the wire that leads towards the starter button from the solenoid ((with the solenoid disconnected)(yellow/green)) and the other on the negative wire that connects to the battery terminal or any part of the frame for that matter (without the battery installed) and i press the starter button with the switch set to on and the clutch pulled in should i get a reading that indicated a complete circuit or should only the positive battery wire complete the circuit?

And just to add, rebuilt starter in perfect working order, brand new OEM solenoid.
Also If i short the thin wire on the solenoid to the power feed direct from the battery the solenoid does engage and the starter turns fine. giving the conclusion that the starter and solenoid both work fine.

I thought we covered this. The green/yellow wire applies 12V to the solenoid coil which energizes it to cause the big terminals to short. It is not low side control (i.e one where ground is used to energies the coil)

The answer to your question is that you should get a complete circuit from the Yellow Green (when disconnected from solenoid) to the battery (+). It would indicate a direct short if you get a connection to Battery (-). Your harness would get very hot or you would blow a fuse if it was shorted to Battery (-).

It has been explained by Redman a couple of times

IIRC (this is an 1100E anyway)..........................

+12V battery(+) ->fuse box(red)
fusebox->Ignition switch(orange)
Ignition switch->fuse box->(orange)
fuse box->On switch(Orange/White)
Onswitch->Start button (inside the right hand control)
Start Button->solenoid(this is now green/yellow)

You push the start button and you are connected directly from 12V battery(+) to Green/yellow. This is called high side control. You keep describing low side control.

It still sounds like the solenoid is bad; there should be no shorts to ground when the solenoid is energised.

[Counterpoint]

Im sorry that this has gone in a frustrating circle over and over again. From where i stand the problem is that i haven't learnt anything new about how the systems works (maybe aside from wire colours). Id already done all tests suggested, id already tested the starter and solenoid, checked all grounding/earthing points and looked for any damaged wires. I know that my problem is the short to the -signal im detecting in the starter circuit (high side control).

Where im stuck is that the problem exsists only after the controlls in the circuit (towards the solenoid) and only when the starter button is depressed. Sounds to me like that little button is the problem but i've bypassed it and get the same result. IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE I KNOW! its doing my head in! This is why i've asked for help. Was hoping there was a trick or common issue that i was neglecting as all tests so far come up with no conclusions.

Looks like i'll be rewiring the circuit from scratch...

[posplayr]

Im sorry that this has gone in a frustrating circle over and over again. From where i stand the problem is that i haven't learnt anything new about how the systems works (maybe aside from wire colours). Id already done all tests suggested, id already tested the starter and solenoid, checked all grounding/earthing points and looked for any damaged wires. I know that my problem is the short to the -signal im detecting in the starter circuit (high side control).

Where im stuck is that the problem exsists only after the controlls in the circuit (towards the solenoid) and only when the starter button is depressed. Sounds to me like that little button is the problem but i've bypassed it and get the same result. IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE I KNOW! its doing my head in! This is why i've asked for help. Was hoping there was a trick or common issue that i was neglecting as all tests so far come up with no conclusions.

Looks like i'll be rewiring the circuit from scratch...

Well did you do your own test that you asked for in such detail previoulsy?

You could save your self alot of aggravation by just finding the problem now rather that trying to rewire something that has nothing to do with the issue

There are only three wires going to the solenoid right?

• One is heavy RED cable to battery (+)
• One is heavy RED cable to starter
• one is 18ga Green/yellow from starter button which you have also by passed.
• There is also a frame retrun for the activation coil (green/yellow return)

If you can short across the the heavy cables connections (which you claimed before) then ==> the starter is connected properly.

If you apply 12V to the green/yellow connection and the heavy wire (to BATT(+) get hot but the starter does not crank (which is what you reported)Then ==> the SOLENOID is BAD

This has been mentioned about three times as a conclusive test of a bad solenoid.

Is that what happens? If so then the solenoid is bad; it is NOT a short as you seem to be clinging to