'82 450 Igniter - Repair, Replace, or Make?

[pete]

Aaah I get ya' now! Bit slow at times is me

Anyways, the seller with the module replied that they have more, so I've asked for clarification on what model they are as they show two different photos and if they can add more quantity so that if they're suitable, I can buy two.

If this works out, I should be able to get this sorted for about $30 or so depending on the other bits and pieces I'll need.

I did keep going on using the heat gun to get the resin off the busted one tonight, and it's making a mess of the resin alright, but it's also making a bit of a mess of the capacitors too. Most of it is off now, so it's just the fiddly bits around the components now where I need to be ultra careful not to gouge the circuit board.

[pete]

Rightio, so it starts... sort of anyway.

I ordered two of the GM HEI style modules off eBay yesterday, and I just ordered a bunch of stuff from Jaycar including resistors, diodes, spade connectors, and a heatsink.

Hopefully that should all arrive Tuesday or Wednesday and I should be able to start putting it all together.

I took a gamble on the heatsink size, and the style might not work to easily mount, but at $9.95 I felt it was worth the gamble given I was ordering the other stuff at the same time. It's 75mm x 105mm with fan style extrusions, which is what may make the mounting awkward, but I don't recall having anything else in the garage that would work.

[pete]

Ok, I'm a little confused.

I'm editing the GM HEI diagram from Matchless to suit the 450, so the changes should be minimal, mainly relating to wire colours and only having two coils, so nothing ground breaking there.

However, there appears to be one big difference between the 1980 GS1000G and the 1982 GS450E in relation to the signal generator and ignitor.

On the GS1000G diagram, the only wires coming from the signal generator are the green and blue wires from the pickup coils.

On the GS450E diagram however, there are three wires, the brown and green/white from the pickup coils and also the black/white wire which is common to both coils.

In addition, the GS1000G ignitor's black/white wire is sent off to ground, whereas the GS450E ignitor's black/white is connected to the pickup coil common wire (black/white), and it has a separate ground wire.

Now, moving on to the GM HEI diagram (below), the pickup coils are simply strung in series between the modules. The common wire there between the coils does not appear to be grounded or anything. This matches with what the GS1000G wiring diagram shows also, that the common side of the coils is simply the common side, not grounded.

So, is it right then for the GS450E that I should simply leave the black/white wire from the pickup coils disconnected so it continues to just be a common wire for the two pickup coils to mimic the GS1000G's setup?

I'm unsure about this as the unverified GS450 ignitor schematic seems to imply that this common black/white wire from the pickup coils is grounded, and the German fellow's home made ignitor also shows the pickup coil having one side grounded.

I guess the other question is... is the GS1000G common wire actually grounded?

[hjfisk]

The 450 has a mechanical advance so no worry there.

Matchless's GM HEI based ignitor seems like a good solution...although if it were me I'd just get that one off ebay. The HEI system is well regarded so it shouldn't be too much to expect it to fire a twin cylinder motorcycle.

The other option you have is find an igniter for a different model and change the wiring around , I have done this with success in the past , as long as the unit you find is off a mechanical advance bike it should not matter. I put a ignitor from a 80 gs550L on to a 81 gs750e once and it worked fine just triced wire and then changed the connector around so it plugged in just like the original

[pete]

The other option you have is find an igniter for a different model and change the wiring around , I have done this with success in the past , as long as the unit you find is off a mechanical advance bike it should not matter. I put a ignitor from a 80 gs550L on to a 81 gs750e once and it worked fine just triced wire and then changed the connector around so it plugged in just like the original

Yup, very true! The problem is finding one for a reasonable price locally here in Aus. There's not quite so many that show up as they do in the US unfortunately.

[pete]

Ok, I finally found Matchless' original thread about these HEI modules.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=133014&highlight=hei

In here, there's another forum member "brad-450Lz" who tried and failed with the HEI setup, but he does mention that the black/white third wire from the pickups goes to ground. This doesn't sound right to me, as I have 100% verified that there is no connection to ground, unless of course the ignitor itself grounds it.

So, looking at the GS1000G diagram, and then at the KZ550 diagram referenced in that thread, there's a significant difference due to the extra leads on the KZ.

So, I'm probably going to have some trial and error testing to do to get this working.

I'll initially endeavour to measure the voltage generated across the pickup coils, although I don't know if my cheap multimeter will be quick enough to show it accurately.

I'm trying to refresh some of me electrical knowledge here after 12 to 15 years away from it, but it's hard.

I can see how the bias works in the diagrams by holding one side of the pickup coils over 1.6 volts via the two diodes (0.8 volt forward voltage each) which (according to Lou's HEI module notes) results in extending the dwell time.

Beyond the above, my brain starts to hurt, so I will have to spend some time in the garage doing some practical testing.

I initially though biasing too much would probably be ok, but on reading through Lou's HEI notes, that will actually lead to stumbling at higher rev's, so I need to get it right.

I'll keep you all up to date with what I find.

Sorry for the rambling, but it helps to type out what I'm thinking.

[john82q]

So, is it right then for the GS450E that I should simply leave the black/white wire from the pickup coils disconnected so it continues to just be a common wire for the two pickup coils to mimic the GS1000G's setup?

Pete,
I suspect the the gs1000 pick up coils are grounded internally, and this is not shown on the diagrams.

Dont lose sight of that, all you want to acheive is that when the Green wire on the HEI gets a small pluse it grounds the igniton coil and thus generates the spark. you could simulate this with a small battaery.

I'll initially endeavour to measure the voltage generated across the pickup coils, although I don't know if my cheap multimeter will be quick enough to show it accurately.

This is where I would start.
It turns out I am just down road from you in Arana Hills, I have a small hand held oscilloscope you can borrow if you like. For sure it would show you the pulses as you kick it over.

Sent you a PM.


Cheers John

[pete]

Pete,
I suspect the the gs1000 pick up coils are grounded internally, and this is not shown on the diagrams.

Dont lose sight of that, all you want to acheive is that when the Green wire on the HEI gets a small pluse it grounds the igniton coil and thus generates the spark. you could simulate this with a small battaery.

Cheers for the reply John.

That could be the case for sure, would be nice for a 1980 GS1000G owner to pipe up and clarify... hint hint to someone with one

And yeah, what you say there is right on the money. I tend to over think things and make them more complicated than they need to be, so trying to avoid that this time around but am still getting confused at the moment.

Probably the best thing I can do for myself right now is try not to think about it any more until all the bits get here so I can start testing.

This is where I would start.
It turns out I am just down road from you in Arana Hills, I have a small hand held oscilloscope you can borrow if you like. For sure it would show you the pulses as you kick it over.

Sent you a PM.


Cheers John

Also agreed on the start point, although as suspected my multimeter is too slow and insensitive to do much more than flicker when I pass a screwdriver in front of the pickup coil (tried it tonight).

However, having said that, the Clymer manual indicates you can test the ignitor by using a 1.5 volt battery to simulate the pickup coil action, so that gives me a reasonable idea of what I should expect from the pickup coils.

Very cool that we share a postcode, and thanks for the offer of the scope. I did at one point have a cathode ray oscilloscope years ago, but left it at my parent's place when I moved out of home and not sure what ended up happening to it. More than likely it wouldn't work by now though anyway.

I got your PM and for sure if I can't get any headway I'll give you a bell and see if you have any brighter ideas.

For now I'm just gonna wait (im)patiently for all my bits to arrive, and I think Tuesday will be the earliest they'll get here.

[Matchless]

Pete,
I would suggest rather trying to use the KZ550 method. You will see the red and blue wires are common, thus the single black/white wire can be used in the same way.

If you try the GS1000 method just leave the black/white disconnected.

A timing light and a dwell meter should show you what is happening when its running.

Good luck!

[pete]

Pete,
I would suggest rather trying to use the KZ550 method. You will see the red and blue wires are common, thus the single black/white wire can be used in the same way.

If you try the GS1000 method just leave the black/white disconnected.

A timing light and a dwell meter should show you what is happening when its running.

Good luck!

Thanks for the tip Matchless.

I was thinking this morning (see I still can't stop thinking about it) that my first attempt should be the GS1000 type exactly as you suggested with the black/white disconnected.

I have some bread boards at home so I should be able to test it without soldering to start with.

I'll keep you all up to date, still waiting (im)patiently for everything to arrive... tomorrow at the earliest...

[pete]

Just a quick bump so people know I'm still doing this, just waiting on the parts still.

Apparently small registered parcel post is the absolute slowest method of postage Australia Post does, and has been known to take a couple of weeks.

Still waiting...

[pete]

Finally!

Just in time for my cat's birthday meaning we've had a few sparkling red wines and I'm not in the best mind to be starting to test ignition components.

I suspect tomorrow night will be the same given it'll be Saturday night, so maybe I'll be able to try something on Sunday night.

[Matchless]

Pete,
You should have spark soon and also pave the way for other GS450's!
Good luck!

[pete]

Indeed! There's gotta be an easier way than trying to find another 30 year old ignitor that will have an unknown life span.

I doubt I'll get quite this adventurous, but it's always possible to get some PCB etching stuff and make up a little PCB to put in a little weather proof case to hold the diodes and resistors so all you need to do is plug some modules onto the spade connectors that would be hanging out of the weather proof case.

[bluewool]

If you do choose to use "a little waterproof box". Be sure to make a hole inthe bottom for drainage. Water proof boxes tend to be more resistant to the escape of water than the entrance.

There always these if you feel like shelling out... Maybe someone has posted this before, if it's a duplicate, my apologies

http://www.boyerbransden.com/suzuki.html