'82 450 Igniter - Repair, Replace, or Make?

[pete]

Pete,
Are you using an induction timing light? If so the only extra load will be on the 12V side and that should be negligible. Do you have good battery voltage on the coils?

You also need a good ground on the HEI modules as you are pulling about 4-6 Amps every time the coils are powered. The rest of the ignitor circuit draws very low current and can use thin wires.

If you are getting spark when turning the motor, you should be able to fire a timing light and should be able to check the timing without it running... I think!

Then maybe its not electrical?
Good luck!

Cheers Andre, and yeah everything voltage wise looks good. I've got a bit of a dodgy battery connection due to an uninsulated jumper lead, but I have checked and there is definitely no voltage loss due to that.

It is an induction timing light and the grounds are effective if not spectacular.

I believe the problem to be purely that it is running far too rich and I'm about 99% sure that it's not an electrical issue at this stage.

[Matchless]

Cheers Andre, and yeah everything voltage wise looks good. I've got a bit of a dodgy battery connection due to an uninsulated jumper lead, but I have checked and there is definitely no voltage loss due to that.

It is an induction timing light and the grounds are effective if not spectacular.

I believe the problem to be purely that it is running far too rich and I'm about 99% sure that it's not an electrical issue at this stage.

Can you start and run on the choke only without opening/touching the throttle at all? You should get up to 2K RPM with full choke.

[pete]

Can you start and run on the choke only without opening/touching the throttle at all? You should get up to 2K RPM with full choke.

It's actually running rich enough that I don't need choke or throttle

It's really quite bad richness wise, so I believe stock airbox is the next step and try again.

[Matchless]

It's actually running rich enough that I don't need choke or throttle

It's really quite bad richness wise, so I believe stock airbox is the next step and try again.

Then those rags in place of the airbox are reducing airflow too much. Try it without the rags and just run it on the choke for starting or get the airbox and filter back on.
Good luck!

[pete]

My task this week is definitely to get the stock airbox back on.

At the moment, I'm actually thinking I'll leave it in and get Tranzac to put on a muffler that replicates the stock one's for the moment, meaning I can break the engine in in stock form, then I can do the K&N pods and a less restrictive muffler after the break-in period is over.

I can then have a much better chance of testing the ignitor properly too.

One good thing I realised is that the plugs weren't wet, which means it was at least burning all the fuel it was getting, meaning I was definitely getting spark

[Jman750e]

Been following this thread for a few days. Still try to wrap my head around this wealth of info. Just recently purchased a '80 gs450 that wasn't running, needs an ignitor. Been a few day and ready to hear the good news.

[pete]

Ooops, haven't gotten back to updating this thread!

Basically, it's gonna be a while until I get back to testing again as I'm going to need to wait until I can get the exhaust made up. Unfortunately I'm experiencing budget cuts currently so the exhaust is on hold temporarily, hopefully only a month or so.

On another note altogether, I shot Lou off an email and he has replied, and I think I may end up having some troubles when I rev going by what he's thinking at the moment.

Nothing concrete, and I can't see it being easy for him to help too much as he'll only be able to go by what I can tell him, and I don't fully understand all this stuff.

So, stay tuned for sure...

[Matchless]

Pete, if you find you really cannot get it to work, consider fitting a pair of pickups of another bike or you may have to fall back and build that German guys schematic. At least you are not out of options!

[pete]

Pete, if you find you really cannot get it to work, consider fitting a pair of pickups of another bike or you may have to fall back and build that German guys schematic. At least you are not out of options!

Very true Andre! I ain't givin' up on it as I really want to see if I can find a cheaper alternative for us 450 owners as the OEM ignitors seem to be quite flaky when combined with the dodgy charging systems on these bikes, and working ones are now becoming quite rare and expensive second hand.

There is defnitely more than one option left if this doesn't work out

I'm quietly confident I'll get it to work, and quite stoked that Lou replied to my "Mr Random from the Internet" email...

[Matchless]

There is defnitely more than one option left if this doesn't work out

I'm quietly confident I'll get it to work, and quite stoked that Lou replied to my "Mr Random from the Internet" email...

Yes Lou is a good guy and very helpful
The rest of your build seems to be coming on nicely.
Keep well.

[spyug]

I ain't givin' up on it as I really want to see if I can find a cheaper alternative for us 450 owners as the OEM ignitors seem to be quite flaky when combined with the dodgy charging systems on these bikes, and working ones are now becoming quite rare and expensive second hand.

Based on my current findings with the 1983/86 550 project I think there are more than a few bikes that fall in to this category. In the case of this bike I think the options are even more limited as the only non OEM solution that would be easiest to install would be the kit offered by Boyer Bransden in England. At $277 before taxes and duties to north America not viable for a lot of folks, myself included.

I am not electronically inclined so bodging up one myself would be impossible but a kit with supplied components and a build plan might be doable for myself and a lot of guys. The problem as I see it now , however, is that a "universal" box would be impossible due to the variations in ignition advance curves for the different engines.It would be great if it could be done.

At the present time, I'm moving forward on the assumption (there I go again) that an igniter from a similar but perhaps larger engine of the same era ( i.e. 700 to 1000) coupled with its own signal generator might work. I really don't know and can't get any definitive answers until I try it. I am trying to source them now.

This is all really frustrating as we have these otherwise correctly functioning bikes that are just so much junk without these "modules". Like you, Pete, my back is up now and I'm determined to find something (fairly priced) that will work. Well done on your research and the project so far, I, along with many others are pulling for you and a happy ending to your saga.

Cheers mate,
Spyug

[pete]

Yes Lou is a good guy and very helpful
The rest of your build seems to be coming on nicely.
Keep well.

He certainly is Andre, and thanks for making me aware of his existence

And yep, it is progressing ok, although I really wish I had unlimited funds so I could just get everything done right now

Based on my current findings with the 1983/86 550 project I think there are more than a few bikes that fall in to this category. In the case of this bike I think the options are even more limited as the only non OEM solution that would be easiest to install would be the kit offered by Boyer Bransden in England. At $277 before taxes and duties to north America not viable for a lot of folks, myself included.

I am not electronically inclined so bodging up one myself would be impossible but a kit with supplied components and a build plan might be doable for myself and a lot of guys. The problem as I see it now , however, is that a "universal" box would be impossible due to the variations in ignition advance curves for the different engines.It would be great if it could be done.

At the present time, I'm moving forward on the assumption (there I go again) that an igniter from a similar but perhaps larger engine of the same era ( i.e. 700 to 1000) coupled with its own signal generator might work. I really don't know and can't get any definitive answers until I try it. I am trying to source them now.

This is all really frustrating as we have these otherwise correctly functioning bikes that are just so much junk without these "modules". Like you, Pete, my back is up now and I'm determined to find something (fairly priced) that will work. Well done on your research and the project so far, I, along with many others are pulling for you and a happy ending to your saga.

Cheers mate,
Spyug

I'm with ya' Spyug.

What complicates yours is electronic advance, and that means any replacement has gotta give you a similar advance curve, unless of course you can replace the guts with a mechanical advance type.

As long as you can phsically get the bits to fit, I can't see any reason your idea won't work, and the big difficulty will probably be getting the timing worked out.

Thanks for your input, glad to see there's more of us keen to find an alternative that doesn't break the bank.

Of course, we could all just go back to points...

[Matchless]

Here is a place in Belgium that has quite a selection:

http://programmable-ignition.com/contact.htm

[pete]

Can't believe I never replied to this!

Andre, they do have quite a selection, but no ignitors for the 450's...

I've also emailed Wayne Gum at www.erd.co.nz about his Hyperpak ignitor.

He needed clarification as to whether it's electronic or mechanical advance and unfortunately I haven't heard back since. I sent that email a couple of weeks ago, so I've just sent another reply now.

Also, a bit of a non-update... got a case to put the ignition circuit in once it's finalised:



And it looks like I'll be able to take a week off at the end of June when I should be able to get it towed to Tranzac for the exhaust and do some painting, so I should be able to resume testing after that.

Pity it's so far away...

[pete]

Got a reply from Wayne of ERD on the Hyperpak ignitor, and he does electronic advance ignitors only, so nothing for the 450.

So, there are only 4 options:

1. OEM
2. Dyna + Dyna coils
3. Boyer Bransden (think I recall seeing these discontinued though)
4. Make one

Glad I've continued with the GM HEI modules...