'82 450 Igniter - Repair, Replace, or Make?

[pete]

Well, that was another painful attempt to try to get this thing firing right today.

So, it does run, but no better than the other day.

My first attempt with the alternative 1M/10M resistors resulted in no spark whatsoever, so I assumed that the resistance didn't allow enough current to flow to activate the HEI module, so I dropped them to 100K/1M, but still no spark. So, back to the 4K7/47K and I got spark, but still the massive retardation.

So, I fiddled with the extra advance John cut out of the plate, but today it just seemed to be all over the shop and it seemed like the timing was changing which was weird. I don't think it was the advance kicking in, as it would seem to jump or drop rev's sporadically without touching the throttle at all.

Took a couple of closeups of how much adjustment is available now:



And I took a couple of videos, and my apologies for my ugly mug appearing in the first one, bit hard to start and stop a camera on the other side of the garage without walking in front of it...

At least now you can get an idea of how good that exhaust will sound once I can get the thing to fire properly!



And I set the camera up beside me as I was running the timing light, and you can sort of get an idea here as to what I mean by the timing seems to change which I found very confusing.



The videos are quite large, not sure if/how I can make them smaller...

So, right at this point I'm completely out of ideas and have come to the possibly incorrect conclusion that the transistor setup is just too slow to fire the HEI module in a timely manner.

However, having said this, the schematics that are supposed to be an accurate representation of the stock ignitors definitely use transistors like these, so it must be an issue with interacting with the HEI module.

Right now I'm completely lost and am starting to feel quite over this whole HEI deal, but at the same time I want to get it working as it certainly should be possible! I just wish I had a suitable amount of time in one go where I could get stuck into it...

Open to all suggestions/comments/feedbacks at this point in time...

[john82q]

Lookin at your 2nd vid, at just before 40 sec, you seem to have it set,stop the light, then it starts hunting, did you give it throttle then ?


John

[pete]

Yeah pretty sure I did, but did you notice how the timing goes all weird at that point and the rev's stay up until I move the plate back to retard it again?

I'm actually thinking at the moment that an inverting opamp might be the way and I may need to go back to our discussions about that. I think the way it's set up the transistor is just too slow, so maybe a fast acting opamp will sort that out... just thinking anyway.

[Briars]

Pete, thanks for sticking with the hard work. It must be getting frustrating but maybe you are getting closer than you think.

Here is the response on our last questions from my friend. I do not know if it will help you or not but perhaps it will.

"Did not include the zener clamp after further study. I am making an assumption about the voltage kicks you will get from the pickup coil. Without testing … what I have put before you is somewhat of a guess.

The added D2/R3 leg about the coil is to swamp the “fly-back” pulse from the pickup coil on every half cycle. It is there to protect the transistor (and possibly the front end of the HEI module) from high peak reverse voltages I would expect you to see at high RPMs.

If the pickup coil output is not that great at high RPM then you may not need the D2/R3 leg at all. Must test then decide."

Pete keep at it and I will be following you progress.

[pete]

Cheers Briars, and yeah it is getting quite frustrating at the moment.

I'm a little unsure where to go from here right now, either the non-inverting circuit or the op-amp I think...

The most frustrating thing is that our pickup coils just don't generate enough of a voltage spike to fire the HEI modules independently of any extra circuitry, otherwise it would be so much simpler.

Thanks for clarifying that with your friend too, that makes some sense.

[bakalorz]

Cheers Briars, and yeah it is getting quite frustrating at the moment.

I'm a little unsure where to go from here right now, either the non-inverting circuit or the op-amp I think...

The most frustrating thing is that our pickup coils just don't generate enough of a voltage spike to fire the HEI modules independently of any extra circuitry, otherwise it would be so much simpler.

Thanks for clarifying that with your friend too, that makes some sense.

The transistor is not too slow, any transistor is going to be way more than fast enough (find its spec sheet (google "transitor name" & pdf) then compare to the RPM ... it will be orders of magnitude faster than the RPM)

The op-amp is not the answer ... Its likely to be worse in several ways.

The non-inverting circuit may or may not be.

Other than that, the most likely thing is that the bias (i.e. turn on and turn off points) needs to be adjusted.

Post the schematic you are currently using.

[pete]

The transistor is not too slow, any transistor is going to be way more than fast enough (find its spec sheet (google "transitor name" & pdf) then compare to the RPM ... it will be orders of magnitude faster than the RPM)

The op-amp is not the answer ... Its likely to be worse in several ways.

The non-inverting circuit may or may not be.

Other than that, the most likely thing is that the bias (i.e. turn on and turn off points) needs to be adjusted.

Post the schematic you are currently using.

Thanks Martin, very true, I should have said the circuit is potentially introducing lag between the pickups and the HEI module.

However, the bias is definitely something to look at.

Here's the current circuit for one side:

[pete]

Time for Plan B, but HEI is not dead...

Ok, so I have to confess I've been holding out... I do have a plan B, and it is currently underway.

The HEI setup is not dead and buried and I will be going back to it, but right now I'm far too frustrated with it and I need to get the bike up and running properly so I can do the first oil drain and recheck valve clearances etc.

So...

I managed to acquire one of these:



Note that anything from here on in about compatibility with the '80 - '82 450's is *not guaranteed by Dynatek*. At this point in time, the DS3-3C is simply a points replacement ignition for the '77 - '79 GS400's that have points, that's it.

I need to highlight that because I've been emailing back and forth with Scott from Dynatek and he's been incredibly helpful, so I don't want him to be in any sort of awkward position where someone says I said it would work or something... just gotta do the whole butt covering thing.

Anyway, in a nutshell, everything between the 400's and 450's seemed to be reasonably in common and I couldn't see any reason that the DS3-3C shouldn't work, which is why I'm having a go.

The first big difference between the 400 and 450 is that the oil pressure switch is not under the plate in the 400's, so the points plate has no cut out for it.

The other big difference is that the 400 uses a 8mm bolt to secure the advance mechanism to the crankshaft, whereas the 450 uses a 6mm bolt. This turned out to be neither here nor there because the advance mechanism's shaft diameter the rotor sits on is the same.

Anyway, the plates are the same size but the rotor on the Dyna is a bit shorter:



So, John did me a huge favour and machined up a brass spacer:



And a test fit shows that the plate actually won't touch the screw for the oil pressure switch wire, but there's very little clearance, maybe 1mm:



I am thinking of grinding about 1 to 2mm off the plate just in the immediate vicinity of the oil pressure switch to ensure there is no chance of contact.

Unfortunately when I went to check how the advance mechanism was tonight, I discovered the spacer is just a smidgen too thick, and I mean a really tiny amount, so I suspect I can just sand it back with some course sand paper to get it right.

So, right now I'm getting the wiring sorted out.

I had no luck tracking down OEM connectors that match what Suzuki used on the coils, so I'm replacing the OEM connectors on the harness and the coils as well as using extra connectors to hook up the Dyna.

This way I can put the stock coils back on when I get back to testing the HEI setup again.



The only catch right now is the wire I used to extend the orange/white power lead to the coils is too thick for the heat shrink I have, so I may have to whack some electrical tape around it as a short term measure.

One other thing I need to do is make up a lead for the oil pressure switch as it's combined with the signal generator wiring.

I'm planning to locate the wire up where it heads towards the gauges and put in some bullet connectors so I can either use the stock signal generator wiring or the single wire to use with the Dyna. Hope that makes sense.

So that's about where it is right now, and once I get that spacer thin enough that the advance mechanism works, then I can hook the Dyna up and do the static timing.

I'm sure there's more details I've missed but that's it so far...

[pete]

Right, so I discovered from Dynatek that they provide a spacer with one of their other models for the bigger GS', and the dimensions sounded like what John and I worked out for this one.

The thickness is 0.125", but when I measured mine it was more like 0.130", so I gave it a sand back tonight and it actually ended up at about 0.115" and feels just the tiniest bit loose, so it looks like the spacer on the other kits will suit for the 450's as well.

I used 800 grit paper to sand it back, thought it would take a lot longer to take 0.005" off, but apparently not...

Either way, it's back on the bike and the advance mechanism actually advances now

[mike_of_bbg]

As long as it advances and can't slip off of the advance mech, you're good!

That's good news for you twin owners. It's still more expensive than the big boys' DS3, but you get coils with it. They must do that because of the stock coils with condensers on the points 400s, and perhaps the stock 450 coils would work much better with the Dyna if they sold it without?

But the Dyna is brand new, has a great reputation, and is still cheaper than a new stock igniter/ignitor...

[pete]

As long as it advances and can't slip off of the advance mech, you're good!

That's good news for you twin owners. It's still more expensive than the big boys' DS3, but you get coils with it. They must do that because of the stock coils with condensers on the points 400s, and perhaps the stock 450 coils would work much better with the Dyna if they sold it without?

But the Dyna is brand new, has a great reputation, and is still cheaper than a new stock igniter/ignitor...

Yeah, not that loose! From what I can tell it's probably about 0.010" too small which is really neither here nor there.

Basically yes to all of the above, but potentially still out of reach price wise for some which is why I will definitely revisit the HEI modules before too long.

I'm definitely going to be a little more confident in the Dyna igntion than my own dodgy soldering job, but for those guys that are good with an iron etc. then the HEI will still be a viable solution providing I can get it sorted.

As to the coils, from memory they're 3 - 4 ohms for stock, whereas the Dyna ones are 5 ohm, so I don't think I'd be trying to use them and in fact there is a big note in the instructions not to use them. I suspect this is more the reason not to use them rather than the condensors.

Anyway, I'm hoping at this stage to get it wired up in time so I can take some time owing to me next Thursday. Next weekend's going to be a write-off due to father's day...

[pete]

Ok, had a bit of a fiddle in LT Spice this morning to see if I could find an alternative way to get a non-inverting amplifier, but I had no success, mainly because I just had a complete mental blank on what I was even trying to accomplish. I will look again after doing some more Google searching... surely a non-inverting amp should be really simple? Must be missing something really stupidly obvious (again).

Anyway, got a bit of time in the garage tonight, heading towards having the Dynatek wired in with an extra wire for the oil pressure switch.

So, my plan is to cut the oil pressure switch wire on the gauge side of the connector and put in a male/female bullet connector pair so I can alternate between the stock signal generator wiring and the stand alone wire I'll need for the Dynatek setup.

First step identifying the wire in question (I know this is basic stuff for the experienced guys, but I know there's at least one guy curious about this who knows zilch on electrics):



As I've been into the harness on a number of occassions during cleaning it up and doing the LED conversion, I had a pretty fair idea of which wire it was (yellow/green) but I still double checked as you can see above with the multi meter on the continuity setting. I simply plugged the signal generator in and put one probe on the oil pressure switch connector and the other I just stuffed down the back of the connector.

Snipped the wire on the gauge side of the connector:



I found a piece of green wire to run the new oil pressure switch wire with:



The wire's not carrying a huge current, and in my case it'll be about 20mA as I'm running a LED for the light in the gauge, but even the standard bulb's probably only 100mA or something, not sure what wattage the bulbs are. Basically it means you don't need any special wire for the job.

Tinned the ends I cut on the gauge wiring and the new wire:



Then crimped on the bullet connectors on the gauge wiring:



The reason I put the female on the end closest to the connector is because that's the one that will stay disconnected when using the stand alone wire with the Dynatek setup, so that prevents an exposed male bullet connector flopping around. It's not connected to anything so won't do any damage, but it doesn't look real flash.

Anyway, I really like to crimp then solder, but I can only do that with the male bullet connector as the insulation on the female connector prevents getting a soldering iron down in there, so I soldered the male plug at least after crimping.

So this setup allows me to join these two together if I was to use the stock signal generator seeing as the wiring for it includes the oil pressure switch wire:



It's just loosely together enough so I could repeat the continuity test at this point to make sure my crimping and solder was successful.

Then I got a female bullet connector and a fork type connector crimped onto the new green wire:



You can just see where I soldered the fork type connector after crimping too.

[pete]

Next up I grabbed a bunch of small cable ties and bound the new green wire to the Dynatek wiring along most of its length:



The intention is to wrap that in something later on, but for now that at least lets me route them together.

Then I got the oil pressure switch connected:



And that's it for tonight.

Mounting the coils and connecting them up will be the next trick, but they're a bit larger than the stock coils so at the moment the way I've run my main harness will interfere with mounting the Dynatek coils, so I'll need a bit more time to sort that out.

[pete]

Finished connecting the Dynatek up tonight and got the coils mounted etc. ready to do the static timing. Unfortunately I didn't have a battery I could use tonight and the old PC power supply I used for things like the LED conversion testing just doesn't have enough guts by the looks to do the timing.

Anyway... the Dynatek HT leads require the little end caps for the spark plugs, and fortunately they give you some as I have no idea what I did with mine:



And the coils are gonna be somewhat of a tight squeeze:



Figured out the length I need for the plug leads, trimmed, and put the rubber boots on ready:



Stripped the insulation, folded the wire over, and crimped the coil connector on:

[pete]

And one lead ready and on the coil:



And then I sort of routed the wiring where it should run so I could connect it to the coils and the oil pressure switch bullet connector:



Wired up the left coil, got it mounted correctly, and connected to the harness:



Repeat for the right coil: