Why Unloaded Stator tests are BAD.

[posplayr]

Flame away ...

Bakalorz,
You are continuing to post in your typical pi$$ a$%$ juvenile manner.

Learn to read; This is the topic

"Why Unloaded Stator tests are BAD"

The video demonstrates the fact that the stator tests are flawed due to the non-linear behavior of insulation break down. Alot of people do not understand this.

Note I did not specify any specific alternative test suite to the stator pages; simply pointed out the limitations and the possibility of using a current clamp to measure loaded stator currents.

Get this; you agreed with the first part of my post; which would means that you agree that the stator pages Phase B tests are inconclusive. Then you go on to say that you would leave them the same, and you give "a sky is falling warning" to anybody using a current clamp on a OE R/R.

You have got to be kidding . This is not even drama, it is fantacy.


Does my presence here bother you that much?
It must.

You think this is a technical forum? Do you think I do technical write-ups that you need to jump all over because they are not written at a level appropriate for a technical journal?
Apparently you do and you are completely missing the point. Or more likely you are simply an opportunist taking the statements out of the non technical context in which they are given (i.e. GSR)and trying to make yourself appear more knowledgeable (in a non techncial context; which to think of it is quiet pathetic) because you can trip up the old POS.

I write things here at GSR to create as much understanding as possible of the technical issues that a GS owner will face in getting a bike diagnosed and back to a working state.

It is not a technical discussion; get a hint bucko if it was technical you would see some more math.

So what are you doing here? I'll tell you :

You are crapping your pants like a little punk troll and forcing everybody to smell it. Get a life douche bag

[posplayr]

Most clamp-on meters are made for 60hz and may not read the amps correctly at 5000rpm. I ran into a similar situation with 3phase motor speed controls, some clamp-on meter wouldn’t read 100+hz. 5000rpm would be like 500hz wouldn’t it?

I did find that if you tested voltage from a stator lead to engine ground while running that a ground fault would show up even after an ohm test to ground passed.

I have seen stator lead-to-lead voltage test in the stator papers but I seem to have missed the stator lead-to-ground voltage test in them. Didn’t see a stator lead-to-ground test in the factory manual either.

I looked at Steve's Radio Shack current clamp and it doesn't seem to give any specs.

The BK one specifies 60-500 Hz range for AC Voltage and 50-60Hz range for AC Current. No sure how bad the current clamp reading would degrade at 500 Hz, so maybe these would NOT work. Make me feel better for having spent $500 just for a current clamp attachment to my THS730 scope.

Dan, sorry if an $80 unit won't work it is doubtful a $20 unit will.

If it costs more than $80 for a meter, the best alternative is probably to just have a working R/R on hand to swap out which would provide an effective way to fault isolate the stator in Phase A of the revised stator pages.

[tom203]

I looked at Steve's Radio Shack current clamp and it doesn't seem to give any specs.

The BK one specifies 60-500 Hz range for AC Voltage and 50-60Hz range for AC Current. No sure how bad the current clamp reading would degrade at 500 Hz, so maybe these would NOT work. Make me feel better for having spent $500 just for a current clamp attachment to my THS730 scope.

Dan, sorry if an $80 unit won't work it is doubtful a $20 unit will.

If it costs more than $80 for a meter, the best alternative is probably to just have a working R/R on hand to swap out which would provide an effective way to fault isolate the stator in Phase A of the revised stator pages.

Most of these testers assume 60 hertz-at 400 hz, who knows what they'd read. Someone would have to try one and compare results with more sophisticated equipment to see if they are useful. I like the the idea of swapping in a good R/R to test the stator.

[posplayr]

Most of these testers assume 60 hertz-at 400 hz, who knows what they'd read. Someone would have to try one and compare results with more sophisticated equipment to see if they are useful. I like the the idea of swapping in a good R/R to test the stator.

Yea, anybody could benchmark their own stator at various RPM using a given AC volt meter and just look for drops in voltage relative to the benchmark. It is all kinda hocus pocus though if you recall the voltage waveforms for Series and shunt R/R's. The voltage of SERIES R/R actually goes up when it opens the circuit. The Shunt R/R voltage drops because it is shorting the stator.

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/FH012AA_Charging/SSR_vs_FH012AA.pdf

[bakalorz]

Bakalorz,
You are continuing to post in your typical pi$$ a$%$ juvenile manner.

Learn to read; This is the topic

"Why Unloaded Stator tests are BAD"

The video demonstrates the fact that the stator tests are flawed due to the non-linear behavior of insulation break down. Alot of people do not understand this.

Note I did not specify any specific alternative test suite to the stator pages; simply pointed out the limitations and the possibility of using a current clamp to measure loaded stator currents.

So then you apparently don't "understand the non-linear behavior of insulation break down" either ... because the whole reason they are nonlinear is that they break down at HIGH VOLTAGE ... using the AC tests as written they get to 70-80 volts ... using your suggestion they get to 14 volts ... 14 is much lower than 70 ... your test is WORSE than the "bad" tests ... DUHH ! ...Why would you replace a bad test with a worse one, you incompetent pretender.

Get this; you agreed with the first part of my post; which would means that you agree that the stator pages Phase B tests are inconclusive.

No test can ever be conclusive, you can never rule a component to be good. You can find that it fails a test and is bad. If it passes all you can conclude is that the component doesn't have that specific failure, it could have others, or even that same one which only shows up under specific conditions.

Your whole premise (and the title of this thread) are bull$hit, unloaded stator tests are highly useful, READ THE THREADS ABOUT STATOR FAILURES, LOTS OF PEOPLE FIND BAD STATORS USING UNLOADED STATOR TESTS ... How many have been found with your clamp on meter test.

Then you go on to say that you would leave them the same, and you give "a sky is falling warning" to anybody using a current clamp on a OE R/R.

You have got to be kidding . This is not even drama, it is fantacy.

The only fantasy is you thinking you really understand the charging system completely.
I knew you didn't understand why the OEM R/Rs will make the stator look burnt ...
Here's a clue Mr Dunning–Kruger poster-boy:
The OEM R/Rs all regulate only one or two phases, not all three.
So the shunted phases will have MUCH higher currents than the unregulated ones ... when you look at them using an AC current meter they will be significantly unbalanced ... JUST LIKE A DEFECTIVE STATOR WOULD LOOK. DUHH ! you incompetent pretender.

Does my presence here bother you that much?
It must.

You think this is a technical forum? Do you think I do technical write-ups that you need to jump all over because they are not written at a level appropriate for a technical journal?
Apparently you do and you are completely missing the point. Or more likely you are simply an opportunist taking the statements out of the non technical context in which they are given (i.e. GSR)and trying to make yourself appear more knowledgeable (in a non techncial context; which to think of it is quiet pathetic) because you can trip up the old POS.

Actually, you post a lot of things that are wrong or half-understood that I let slide right on by. I posted on this thread because your incompetence would otherwise cause people to use an ineffective test instead of a good one, and cause people to falsely identify good components as bad.

I write things here at GSR to create as much understanding as possible of the technical issues that a GS owner will face in getting a bike diagnosed and back to a working state.

And when your writings are correct I'll leave them alone, but when you post mis-information that will only confuse or mislead I'll correct it.

Like in this case.

You like to pretend that you understand the charging system, and to an extent you do, but you really don't understand the limits of your knowledge, and post stuff that's just plain wrong quite often.

It is not a technical discussion; get a hint bucko if it was technical you would see some more math.

So what are you doing here? I'll tell you :

You are crapping your pants like a little punk troll and forcing everybody to smell it. Get a life douche bag

Actually what smells is the advice you are giving in this thread.
Thats the crap.

The advice Graham gave was good, but I bet you don't understand that either (prove me wrong, provide a cogent explanation of why his suggested test works ... you said you want to help people understand the system and troubleshoot ... this would be a prime chance to do just that ... go ahead and try, after you fail I'll explain his test and actually help people instead of misleading them)
Graham's suggested test has actually found defective stators.

The advice I gave regarding hot testing will help people, there have been several threads where stators work cold but fail hot.

You're suggested test is CR@P, it has not (and probably never will) found one defective stator that won't show on other tests.
There is no basis behind it, and the unloaded stator tests certainly are not bad (in direct contradiction to your ludicrous thread title).

Post correct useful info and I certainly won't try to make an issue out what isn't there.

Post incorrect cr@p, especially misleading or potentially harmful info and I will call you on it.

Get a life you incompetent pretender.

[Graham]

There seems to be way too much fussing about stator tests.
It’s simple no ground fault and factory voltage on all three stator leads equals good, if not equals bad.
Putting each other down isn’t going to salve a thing.

[posplayr]

There seems to be way too much fussing about stator tests.
It’s simple no ground fault and factory voltage on all three stator leads equals good, if not equals bad.
Putting each other down isn’t going to salve a thing.

There are a few instances where members here had spent a week or more (100+ posts in a debugging thread) chasing their tail due to an intermittent charging issue. From my recollection most of the reasons for those problems were eventually isolated to intermittent stator faults. Sometimes they were thermally related and sometimes just false positives (passed tests when actually bad).

The point of the thread was to be aware of these types of situations and realize that :

"Unloaded stator tests can only confirm a failure not confirm a good stator"

Guessing at the probability of occurrence of the false positive test might be 5-10% of the time. So generally (90-95% of the time) you will be able to just confirm a failure because the stator will show a short with the ohm meter.

And as to the other subject, he is on ignore.

[posplayr]

Most clamp-on meters are made for 60hz and may not read the amps correctly at 5000rpm. I ran into a similar situation with 3phase motor speed controls, some clamp-on meter wouldn’t read 100+hz. 5000rpm would be like 500hz wouldn’t it?

I did find that if you tested voltage from a stator lead to engine ground while running that a ground fault would show up even after an ohm test to ground passed.

I have seen stator lead-to-lead voltage test in the stator papers but I seem to have missed the stator lead-to-ground voltage test in them. Didn’t see a stator lead-to-ground test in the factory manual either.

How are you doing this test? Disconnected R/R or with the R/R connected?

As you stated this is with the engine running, but is the R/R connected ?
If it is then this is a LOADED Test. I don't recall any LOADED tests in either the manual or the stator pages.
That is the underlying motivation and point of this thread.

The UNLOADED tests are insufficient in about 5-10% of the time.


So a simple revision to the stator pages Phase B might be as simple as adding the second set of voltage tests with the engine running after first checking for an obvious failure detectable with an ohm meter.

The first part will check if there are any obvious failures which in the case of a bad stator would be conclusive 90-95% of the time (the stator insulation failed conclusively so that an ohm meter can detect it)

But if this passes there is still a need for the LOADED test:
Start the engine and measure the voltage of one lead (at a time) relative to ground and insure that it (they) increases with RPM . These would be the LOADED stator tests. I'm just not sure what you will see , although I assume the AC voltage should increase at least until regulation. For a series R/R it should keep increasing.

Measuring voltage is still an indirect measure, as a LOADED test actually requires full current which the clamp would measure. Unfortunately the type of clamp for 500 Hz AC is not in the typical toolkit. If you recall in my various stator voltage measurements, I'm using a current clamp capable of doing the measurments, but it was about $500 for the clamp alone.

[Graham]

There are a few instances where members here had spent a week or more (100+ posts in a debugging thread) chasing their tail due to an intermittent charging issue. From my recollection most of the reasons for those problems were eventually isolated to intermittent stator faults. Sometimes they were thermally related and sometimes just false positives (passed tests when actually bad).

The point of the thread was to be aware of these types of situations and realize that :

"Unloaded stator tests can only confirm a failure not confirm a good stator"

Guessing at the probability of occurrence of the false positive test might be 5-10% of the time. So generally (90-95% of the time) you will be able to just confirm a failure because the stator will show a short with the ohm meter.

And as to the other subject, he is on ignore.

The test I described are with the regulator unplugged and the engine running at whatever RPM the manufacture calls for. An ohmmeter is not used at it may lead to a false good or bad stator reading. An ohmmeter can only confirm a short to ground or an open coil with any confidence. The test below will confirm a good or bad stator.

All tests should be done at room temperature and again at operating temperature. This will show if there is a temperature related short or open circuits in the coils or ground.

1. Output voltage; (lead to lead) if low or high you have a short circuit in the coils and the stator is bad. If no voltage then you have an open circuit in the coils and stator is bad. If you show manufacture’s voltage range at manufacture’s RPM you have no open or shorted circuits in the coils and that will confirm a good stator if part 2 passed.

2. Ground fault test; (lead to engine) if you show any voltage to ground then you have a short circuit to ground and the stator is bad. If you show no voltage to ground then you have an open circuit and this will confirm a good stator if part 1 passed.

These tests are not for finding out what is wrong with the stator but instead are for confirming a bad or good stator witch is really all that is needed. Load testing is not needed because if it shows a short or open under load it will show up on a voltmeter under no load. No guessing or theories but proven facts, out of over 300 stators tested in a 5 years span not 1 passed the tests above and failed to work as manufactured.

[posplayr]

The test I described are with the regulator unplugged and the engine running at whatever RPM the manufacture calls for. An ohmmeter is not used at it may lead to a false good or bad stator reading. An ohmmeter can only confirm a short to ground or an open coil with any confidence. The test below will confirm a good or bad stator.

All tests should be done at room temperature and again at operating temperature. This will show if there is a temperature related short or open circuits in the coils or ground.

1. Output voltage; (lead to lead) if low or high you have a short circuit in the coils and the stator is bad. If no voltage then you have an open circuit in the coils and stator is bad. If you show manufacture’s voltage range at manufacture’s RPM you have no open or shorted circuits in the coils and that will confirm a good stator if part 2 passed.

2. Ground fault test; (lead to engine) if you show any voltage to ground then you have a short circuit to ground and the stator is bad. If you show no voltage to ground then you have an open circuit and this will confirm a good stator if part 1 passed.

These tests are not for finding out what is wrong with the stator but instead are for confirming a bad or good stator witch is really all that is needed. Load testing is not needed because if it shows a short or open under load it will show up on a voltmeter under no load. No guessing or theories but proven facts, out of over 300 stators tested in a 5 years span not 1 passed the tests above and failed to work as manufactured.

I now understand that your statements are in direct conflict with the premise of this thread.

Generally speaking an electrical engineer would always prefer the results of a "LOADED" test v.s. UNLOADED as the loaded test is testing the device as it is expected to be operated.

The UNLOADED test is a theoretical test as it assumes homogeneity of the conditions. It is an extrapolation of a non operating condition to what should happen in a OPERATING condition. The theory of this type of test is is easily violated by multiple factors. Here is a reference detailing the multiplicity of factors that might cause misleading conclusions from using indirect measures like your UNLOADED tests.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24911026/Megger-Book-The-Complete-Guide-to-Electrical-Insulation-Testing

As for your 100% positive results, I can't explain that as it contradicts what has been reported here at GSR with temperature dependent and other intermittent results in stator testing.

[Graham]

I now understand that your statements are in direct conflict with the premise of this thread.

Generally speaking an electrical engineer would always prefer the results of a "LOADED" test v.s. UNLOADED as the loaded test is testing the device as it is expected to be operated.

The UNLOADED test is a theoretical test as it assumes homogeneity of the conditions. It is an extrapolation of a non operating condition to what should happen in a OPERATING condition. The theory of this type of test is is easily violated by multiple factors. Here is a reference detailing the multiplicity of factors that might cause misleading conclusions from using indirect measures like your UNLOADED tests.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24911026/Megger-Book-The-Complete-Guide-to-Electrical-Insulation-Testing

As for your 100% positive results, I can't explain that as it contradicts what has been reported here at GSR with temperature dependent and other intermittent results in stator testing.

Electrical engineers don’t work on motorcycles for a living and therefore would not have the practical knowledge of motorcycle electrical repair in the field. A motorcycle mechanic would. Common sense could tell anyone this. Would anyone use a motorcycle mechanic to design a motor control center for a large factory? I think not.

Unloaded test are not theory and do not assume anything. They are common practice and are manufacture approved. There is a load test for motorcycles but it is for the hole charging system and not the stator only. If there is a problem with a stator under load after testing to be good then the problem is in the load not the stator.

There is nothing in the Megger book about motorcycles; it seams to be about industrial motors, transformers and generators.

The GSR is a form of motorcycle mechanics and non-mechanics. How can someone in their right mind use it to base stator test results. Don’t most people on the GSR use the stator papers for help anyway. Maybe the 5-10% is from the stator papers being insufficient and not if it's under load or unloaded.

[duaneage]

Isn't this just a simple matter of replacing the OEM RR with a Honda unit, or just about any other modern RR, bucking up a new stator if needed and calling it a day?

I think the only test that really matters is do you get around 14 volts across the battery when the engine is running at various speeds. At that point you can forget how it all works and focus on the riding aspect of owning a GS.

[posplayr]

Here's a question...

What about loading it up with high wattage resistors of a suitable value and measuring the voltage across the resistors with a normal multimeter?

No idea what value they should be, but just a thought...

I mention this because I intend to check mine tomorrow during its first start since the rebuild, and all I have available is a multimeter...

Pete,
I think you might be on to something here. A three phase dummy load would be an excellent idea. The question is what value. I found some audio resistor like the one listed below which are 8 ohms.

The stator puts out nominally 70-80 volts at 5KRPM; with 8 ohms resistors that would be about 80/16=5 amps and a nearly full voltage test. P = 5*8=40/.707=28 watts at 5K RPM.

http://cgi.ebay.com/50W-cement-power-resistor-8-ohm-Brand-NEW-ER23-/180631938405?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0e80a565

I would put them in a Y configuration and not spend alot of time at 5K RPM as they will get pretty hot.

Too many glasses of wine at the moment, I'll do a little spreadsheet tomorrow to see what the power per resistor works out to.

Nice; I think I missed/dismissed this the first time.

Jim

[pete]

Cheers for that, I sorta figured it wasn't a real flash idea, but maybe it isn't so bad after all... see what you think after the few wines have worn off

I popped out of the thread for a bit because I don't know enough about this stuff to offer an opinion one way or the other and it was getting a little too heated for my liking... both you guys have given me very useful advice along the way so I don't want to take sides on something I know nothing about...

[bakalorz]

Pete,
I think you might be on to something here. A three phase dummy load would be an excellent idea. The question is what value. I found some audio resistor like the one listed below which are 8 ohms.

The stator puts out nominally 70-80 volts at 5KRPM; with 8 ohms resistors that would be about 80/16=5 amps and a nearly full voltage test. P = 5*8=40/.707=28 watts at 5K RPM.

http://cgi.ebay.com/50W-cement-power-resistor-8-ohm-Brand-NEW-ER23-/180631938405?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0e80a565

I would put them in a Y configuration and not spend alot of time at 5K RPM as they will get pretty hot.

Too many glasses of wine at the moment, I'll do a little spreadsheet tomorrow to see what the power per resistor works out to.

Nice; I think I missed/dismissed this the first time.

Jim

-- WARNING --

POSPLAYER IS PROVIDING DANGEROUSLY INCOMPETENT ADVICE IN THIS POST

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ATTEMPT THE TEST DESCRIBED BY HIM

This is DANGEROUS overloading of the resistors.

You're too incompetent to even do a simple power calculation.

I have no idea which orifice you pulled your power calculation from, but

P=V*I
or
P=I*I*R
or
P=V*V/R

take your pick.

If you were to assume that the phase voltage were 40 volts (1/2 of 80 volts) the power would = 200 watts.

But even your assumption of 40 volts is incorrect. The phase voltage of each leg of a y connected stator is 1/sin(60) that value.

So the actual power is 267 watts per resistor ... almost 10 times more than you erroneously calculated and more than 5 times the allowable power.

WAY TOO MUCH !

And if you happen to go over 5000 rpm while trying to measure the currents the power goes up exponentially, if you touch 7000 rpm for a second, you are at over 500 watts per resistor ... more than 10 times the allowable limit.

To anyone following allong ... Do not attempt this test unless you want to take a good chance of setting your bike on fire.

And Posplayer, don't drunk post dangerous advice with the caveat that "I'll check to see if its safe in the morning"

What you just advocated is dangerous and criminally negligent ... period.

If you're to incapacitated to figure it out, wait till you've sobered up to post it at all.