GS Stators: Revised Phase B Tests

[duaneage]

The charging system performance is really a function of four primary elements
a.) Connections
b.) Battery
c.) Stator
d.) R/R

e.) Motorcycle

It's not a battery charger, it's a vehicle. The stator isn't there to charge a battery, it's there to run a bike. The battery just so happens to get a charge out of the deal.

You don't even need the battery to run the bike.

[posplayr]

I told you years ago, you're overanalyzing this with solutions in search of the problem. We all know what the problem is, crappy RRs and under designed charging systems. All the average GSer has to do is swap the RR out and slap a new stator in and call it a day.

There are thousands of GS bikes out there and the vast majority run every day with that silly shunt regulator and a regular old stator. Every once in a while a RR gives up a diode or SCR and it breaks. Who cares about power tables, dummy loads, phase relationships, etc. Remove, Replace, Ride. It's really not a factory defect if millions of cars, bikes and boats use the same regulation method mile after mile every day. Put that in perspective.

I've read your threads on the mods to your bikes, you've got real talent and it shows. I'm perplexed why you've made GS charging systems your primary interest, how about the ignitors or electronic turn signal controllers? Design a digital shift indicator or an electronic speedo. That would be something!

Can we call all this off before it gets ugly and Frank has to step in and call a time out?

Duane,
I dont need to build electroncis projects; I have virtually no interest in that. The reason I give charging systems get so much attention is:

1.) Most people are confused about electricity , and are not really equipped to deal with the troubleshooting the GS electrical problems.

2.) The SHUNT PM designs are flawed regardless of how many are running around. For the GS's we are running at a 80% failure rate from the fried stator poll. Not sure how you an suggest there is not a problem??

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=167978&highlight=poll

There are plenty of other bikes with similar issues even to this day.

3.) I am actually working on diagnostic/prognostic architectures for military vehicles for the US Army, so as a test, I like to work this charging system diagnostics problem as a simple example to make sure that the theoretical work is sound.

Some people claim I over analyze, some people complain I under analyze, some people complain I dont know what I'm doing, some people complain I did not listen to what they told me years ago, some people complain (.........fill in what you like).

The point is that there is a problem with GS charging systems needing constant maintenace and diagnosis and while there are a set of established tests, the results are subject to be ambiguity at times and therefore have room for improvement. And secondly, I'm using this as a simple diagnostic problem to work a real life troubleshooting design example.

If you get tired of reading (need a time out from all the math???), you can always ignore it.

[posplayr]

The charging system performance is really a function of four primary elements
a.) Connections
b.) Battery
c.) Stator
d.) R/R

e.) Motorcycle

It's not a battery charger, it's a vehicle. The stator isn't there to charge a battery, it's there to run a bike. The battery just so happens to get a charge out of the deal.

You don't even need the battery to run the bike.

Ask you B Buddy, he suggests otherwise.

[bakalorz]

ROTFLMFAO hysterically ... OHHH MY GAWWWWD ... this is GREAT ...

Posplayer, do you realize what you've just done ... you've in your own words said that you are incompetent and unable to solve even a (in your own words "EASY") power calculation correctly.

And you did it with such an arrogant tone, implying that _WE_ were not smart enough to do it.

OH THE IRONY ... the sweet sweet irony ...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... I still can't help laughing ...

this is not intended as a sophomore course in electrical engineering but since graham "called me out" (i guess that is a challenge to produce actual equations) and nobody else seems to know how to calculate the power in a dummy load, i have summarized the calculations for a 10 ohm power resistor below.

the equations are a simple and straight forward application of balanced, non-reactive, 3 phase power equations. This is typically covered in a 1st semester junior year in a ee curriculum (i probably did it in an undergraduate lab back in the late 70's). It is probably covered much earlier in a trade school. There are many readily available "how to" tutorials all over the web for this stuff. If you don't know how to do it, maybe you should go pick up a reference and figure it out.

I absolutely agree, anyone who wants to claim competence in electronics should be able to figure this out, and do it correctly.

Its pretty basic stuff, pretty much EE 101 level, not advanced at all.

there is nothing particularly complicated and with a minimum sense of mathematical and technical awareness of electrical circuits should know how to apply the equations in the referenced link.

You preach it brother, you would have to be an incompetent idiot to screw it up.

it would be very unusual for someone with an ee degree to not remember at least doing these calculation and they would be fully expected to be able to figure it out even if they forgot something from many years ago. It certainly would not even cross my mind to suggest someone with a ee could not go back and figure out these equations. So when someone suggests i don't know how to do it, i take it as an insult.

Take it however you want posplayer, but Graham was absolutely right, YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO DO IT, you try below and you screw it up. I will point out how in exact detail.

It would be equivalent of me claiming that graham doesn't know how to change the brake pads on a bike.

I absolutely agree. I love your analogy, it fits perfectly ... And below you show yourself to be the electronics equivalent of a mechanic that can't even change the brake pads on a bike.

It's your analogy, but I love it, I'm going to have to borrow it from you and use it every time it applies ... Based on your past performance, I have a feeling you're going to hear it a lot.

Please note that it is you who have said what an easy problem this is, and how it SHOULD be no problem for a competent engineer or technician to figure out.

That would be a pretty ludicrous statement, because assuming he does work as a mechanic (not sure why he would lie about that), he is bound to have found himself in a situation where he needed to change pads. It is expected.


this thread makes me question why i even bother to post analysis of gs electrical systems and trouble shooting when what happens is that it draws fire from apparently insecure idiots hiding behind the internet (i'm specifically referring to balzar and graham at the moment).

Please stop posting "analysis" ... you almost always screw it up, leading to nothing but confusion ... you understand the simple stuff, but anytime you delve into something beyond the most basic, all you do is come up with baseless theories that have little to no basis in reality, don't help people, and cause confusion or actual harm.

I've told you before, I'm not particularly out to get you, if you post sensible stuff I have no issue with you (I've never come down on you for advocating thoroughly cleaning connections for example, or you're method of tracking down high resistance connections ... these are sensible ideas, please continue with them)

But on the other hand, you do also post a lot of stupid stuff. These two threads about the loaded stator tests are a prime example. When you advocate stupidity I'll let you know.

i try to keep the material relevant at a minimum technical level to convey the issues for generally non technical members. I'm not paid to do this, so it is more of a way of "paying it forward" for the help i have received.

for those individuals that can't figure out these simple calculations , but nevertheless claim that they are wrong, for that i will bestow the highest honor i can; display it with pride :

Oh yes posplayer, please edjumacate me, I thirst for knowledge.

Stator resistance :
R_stator - measured in ohms
R_stator _leg = 0.5 (spec is 0.4-0.5 ohms)

Phase Resistor:
R_dummy leg - stator leg resistor value in ohms
R_dummy_leg selected for a 100 watt thermal constraint
R_dummy_leg = 10 ohms

Phase to Phase Voltage:
VAC_pp - ac voltage 0-peak phase to phase
VAC_pp - 80 VAC at 5000 RPM (measured)

This is potentially where you make your first mistake. You notation seems to indicate that this is Phase to Phase peak voltage. It is not. IT IS PHASE to PHASE RMS AC voltage. NOTE the RMS, it is important !

Do you understand the difference between RMS and peak, and how they are measured. You might consider it insulting to ask, but I suspect you are going to try to claim this is peak, so I'm going to head that off before you even start.

Please note that where the Suzuki manuals mention measuring the AC unloaded voltage they use a Volt meter; unless using a specialized meter which indicates otherwise, these always measure it as RMS voltage.

To confirm this, I just a little while ago went and measured the phase to phase voltage on my 650 at 5000 rpm: about 92 or 93 VAC RMS (which means that the peak voltage is ~ 130, so higher definately does not help your case ... but we'll let you stay with 80 VAC RMS for the purpose of these calculations)

If you want to dispute that the correct voltage is 80 VAC RMS you better have a darn good case ...

(Are you getting a sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach yet ... )

Phase to Neutral Voltage:
VAC_pn - ac voltage 0-peak phase to neutral
VAC_pn = VAC_pp/sqrt(3) = 46.2 VAC 0-peak

When you apply the 1/sqrt(3) conversion factor to go from phase-phase to phase-neutral, your units stay the same ... so if you start with peak you get peak, and as in this case, when you start with RMS you get RMS ...

I'll assume you realize this ...

so what you have is 46.2 volts RMS phase to neutral.

Power _Total - total power dissipated in resistive loads (ignores reactance)
Power_Total = 3/2*VAC_pn^2/(R_stator_leg+R_dummy_leg/2)
Power_Total = 312.2 watts

And this is where you go off the rails ... the voltage in this calculation needs the PEAK phase-neutral value (check your wiki link from the first post if its unclear)

The 46.2 volts above is RMS.
To convert the RMS voltage to Peak voltage (for sines) you multiply by 1.414 and get 65.34 volts peak phase-to-neutral ... thats the voltage you plug into 3/2*VAC_pn^2/(R_stator_leg+R_dummy_leg/2)

You missed the step of converting the RMS to peak.

Any competent EE would know the units he is actually working with, and use the correct ones that apply ... this really is EE 101 level stuff ... and you hosed it.

And because this is the real world, you don't just fail a test, you potentially set someones bike on fire. So, yeah, when you screw it up it matters enough that you need to hear about it

... and if you hadn't taken the condescending tone you have here I wouldn't even laugh at you, but you did, so eat crow buddy ... is it tasty?

By your own definition you can't correctly do the equivalent of safely installing brake pads.

Using the correct value of 65.34 volts peak p-n you get a total power of 609.90 watts ... double your incorrectly calculated value ...

Power per resistor - power per dummy leg
Power per resistor - Power Total/3
Power per resistor = 104.1 Watts

Using the correct total you really get 203 watts/resistor.
That is for a stator with 80 VAC RMS ph-ph ... Since mine (and presumably others as well) run at 90+ VAC RMS ph-ph its worth running those numbers as well, since this is a worse case than the 80
at 90 VAC the power per resistor comes out to 257 watts/resistor

(and a minor note ... you really get ~5% less since that gets lost in the stator ... but close enough)

Amps per Phase - current through each leg
Amps per Phase - 2*Power per resistor/VAC_pn
Amps per phase - 4.5 Amp 0-peak

Thank you for your post posplayer, you have proven that you cannot do a simple power calculation that is covered in the most basic of EE101 courses ...

You have unequivocally shown your level of competence

Cogratulations.

[bakalorz]

Ask you B Buddy, he suggests otherwise.

It'll run, but it may ruin the ignitor.

OTOH, people supposedly use capacitors in place of the battery just to smooth the voltage and that can apparently work ...

[bakalorz]

Duane,

The point is that there is a problem with GS charging systems needing constant maintenace and diagnosis and while there are a set of established tests, the results are subject to be ambiguity at times and therefore have room for improvement. And secondly, I'm using this as a simple diagnostic problem to work a real life troubleshooting design example.

And the point that I and Graham have been making is that what is needed are 4 tests
unloaded phase to phase
unloaded phase to ground
unloaded phase to phase (hot)
unloaded phase to ground (hot)

Using those 4 tests there is no ambiguity or room for improvement.

They are proven to work

the loaded tests are more expensive, more difficult, needless, and (using your current suggested load) dangerous.

dump the load test out of the stator pages until it has been proven to be more effective than without. (it won't be)

[bakalorz]

Given less than 5 amps in each leg of the dummy load, the total power in the load is about 300 watts, but each leg is only 100 watts.

This is incorrect, you did not calculate it correctly, the actual power is approximately 250 watts, see the long post above

With a decent heat sink those resistors are rated to dissapate 100 watts continuous.

Also incorrect, read the digikey pdf for the resistor 50 watts max, and only if the heat sink is adequate, your suggested heatsink is dangerously to small at 1/12 the required size. (and that assumes air exposure to both sides ... if you lay it on something it is 1/24 the needed size ... the resistors will cook

The tests do not need that as you will probably only run for less than 5 minutes at a 30-50% duty cycle. When the bike is idling the current will drop way off and will not heat the dummy load to anything near the same extent as when it is at 5000 RPM or above.

This duty cycle and time are way too much, read the spec sheet for the resistors ... you are running them at 500% rated load on a tiny heat sink.
the 500% over power limit is 5 seconds

you are dangerously abusing them in your dummy load design.

[Graham]

This is not intended as a sophomore course in Electrical Engineering but since Graham "called me out" (I guess that is a challenge to produce actual equations) and nobody else seems to know how to calculate the power in a dummy load, I have summarized the calculations for a 10 ohm power resistor below.

The equations are a simple and straight forward application of balanced, non-reactive, 3 phase power equations. This is typically covered in a 1st semester junior year in a EE curriculum (I probably did it in an undergraduate lab back in the late 70's). It is probably covered much earlier in a trade school. There are many readily available "How To" tutorials all over the web for this stuff. If you don't know how to do it, maybe you should go pick up a reference and figure it out.
There is nothing particularly complicated and with a minimum sense of mathematical and technical awareness of electrical circuits should know how to apply the equations in the referenced link.

It would be very unusual for someone with an EE degree to not remember at least doing these calculation and they would be fully expected to be able to figure it out even if they forgot something from many years ago. It certainly would not even cross my mind to suggest someone with a EE could NOT go back and figure out these equations. So when someone suggests I don't know how to do it, I take it as an insult. It would be equivalent of me claiming that Graham doesn't know how to change the brake pads on a bike. That would be a pretty ludicrous statement, because assuming he does work as a mechanic (not sure why he would lie about that), he is bound to have found himself in a situation where he needed to change pads. It is expected.


This thread makes me question why I even bother to post analysis of GS electrical systems and trouble shooting when what happens is that it draws fire from apparently insecure idiots hiding behind the internet (I'm specifically referring to Balzar and Graham at the moment).

I try to keep the material relevant at a MINIMUM technical level to convey the issues for generally non technical members. I'm not paid to do this, so it is more of a way of "paying it forward" for the help I have received.

For those individuals that can't figure out these simple calculations , but nevertheless claim that they are wrong, for that I will bestow the highest honor I can; display it with pride :

Thanks for the honor.

Yes I called you out and it seem your backbone got weak so you called me names. You must have been nerved up that you got your math wrong. I take a little longer to figure formulas out then some but I get there. It’d seem the dummy load is a load of crap that only dummies would believe. There is no reason for me to say where you are wrong because Bakalorz has already answered that. You are not keeping this at a minimal technical level for anyone. You are making stator tests so technical that hardly anyone understands it. It seems like your trying to show everyone how smart you think you are.

You want to call me out on my skills? I’m good with that. Just click the link in my signature. I’m the chief mechanic. Tested 7 stators this week, changed 1, 2 ordered, and 4 are good. How many stators you test this week? I do breaks too. I don’t have any degrees but I do have 15 year experience as a millwright (industrial maintenance) diagnoses and repair of 3 phase motors, inverters, transformers, AC to DC converters as well as PLCs, microprocessors, inferred eyes, weigh cells, and more. Point is I am by no means an idiot to this stuff. In other words I used to fix the crap the electrical engineers came up with.

[posplayr]

Thanks Skateguy; I have not seen that one; lots of enginner jokes in that one. Did you draw it?

This should answer all your questions:

[Dogma]

Pos,
It's from one of the best, geekiest web comics, XKCD.

[posplayr]

ROTFLMFAO hysterically ... OHHH MY GAWWWWD ... this is GREAT ...

Posplayer, do you realize what you've just done ... you've in your own words said that you are incompetent and unable to solve even a (in your own words "EASY") power calculation correctly.

And you did it with such an arrogant tone, implying that _WE_ were not smart enough to do it.

OH THE IRONY ... the sweet sweet irony ...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... I still can't help laughing ...




I absolutely agree, anyone who wants to claim competence in electronics should be able to figure this out, and do it correctly.

Its pretty basic stuff, pretty much EE 101 level, not advanced at all.



You preach it brother, you would have to be an incompetent idiot to screw it up.


Take it however you want posplayer, but Graham was absolutely right, YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO DO IT, you try below and you screw it up. I will point out how in exact detail.



I absolutely agree. I love your analogy, it fits perfectly ... And below you show yourself to be the electronics equivalent of a mechanic that can't even change the brake pads on a bike.

It's your analogy, but I love it, I'm going to have to borrow it from you and use it every time it applies ... Based on your past performance, I have a feeling you're going to hear it a lot.

Please note that it is you who have said what an easy problem this is, and how it SHOULD be no problem for a competent engineer or technician to figure out.



Please stop posting "analysis" ... you almost always screw it up, leading to nothing but confusion ... you understand the simple stuff, but anytime you delve into something beyond the most basic, all you do is come up with baseless theories that have little to no basis in reality, don't help people, and cause confusion or actual harm.

I've told you before, I'm not particularly out to get you, if you post sensible stuff I have no issue with you (I've never come down on you for advocating thoroughly cleaning connections for example, or you're method of tracking down high resistance connections ... these are sensible ideas, please continue with them)

But on the other hand, you do also post a lot of stupid stuff. These two threads about the loaded stator tests are a prime example. When you advocate stupidity I'll let you know.



Oh yes posplayer, please edjumacate me, I thirst for knowledge.


This is potentially where you make your first mistake. You notation seems to indicate that this is Phase to Phase peak voltage. It is not. IT IS PHASE to PHASE RMS AC voltage. NOTE the RMS, it is important !

Do you understand the difference between RMS and peak, and how they are measured. You might consider it insulting to ask, but I suspect you are going to try to claim this is peak, so I'm going to head that off before you even start.

Please note that where the Suzuki manuals mention measuring the AC unloaded voltage they use a Volt meter; unless using a specialized meter which indicates otherwise, these always measure it as RMS voltage.

To confirm this, I just a little while ago went and measured the phase to phase voltage on my 650 at 5000 rpm: about 92 or 93 VAC RMS (which means that the peak voltage is ~ 130, so higher definately does not help your case ... but we'll let you stay with 80 VAC RMS for the purpose of these calculations)

If you want to dispute that the correct voltage is 80 VAC RMS you better have a darn good case ...

(Are you getting a sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach yet ... )



When you apply the 1/sqrt(3) conversion factor to go from phase-phase to phase-neutral, your units stay the same ... so if you start with peak you get peak, and as in this case, when you start with RMS you get RMS ...

I'll assume you realize this ...

so what you have is 46.2 volts RMS phase to neutral.


And this is where you go off the rails ... the voltage in this calculation needs the PEAK phase-neutral value (check your wiki link from the first post if its unclear)

The 46.2 volts above is RMS.
To convert the RMS voltage to Peak voltage (for sines) you multiply by 1.414 and get 65.34 volts peak phase-to-neutral ... thats the voltage you plug into 3/2*VAC_pn^2/(R_stator_leg+R_dummy_leg/2)

You missed the step of converting the RMS to peak.

Any competent EE would know the units he is actually working with, and use the correct ones that apply ... this really is EE 101 level stuff ... and you hosed it.

And because this is the real world, you don't just fail a test, you potentially set someones bike on fire. So, yeah, when you screw it up it matters enough that you need to hear about it

... and if you hadn't taken the condescending tone you have here I wouldn't even laugh at you, but you did, so eat crow buddy ... is it tasty?

By your own definition you can't correctly do the equivalent of safely installing brake pads.

Using the correct value of 65.34 volts peak p-n you get a total power of 609.90 watts ... double your incorrectly calculated value ...




Using the correct total you really get 203 watts/resistor.
That is for a stator with 80 VAC RMS ph-ph ... Since mine (and presumably others as well) run at 90+ VAC RMS ph-ph its worth running those numbers as well, since this is a worse case than the 80
at 90 VAC the power per resistor comes out to 257 watts/resistor

(and a minor note ... you really get ~5% less since that gets lost in the stator ... but close enough)



Thank you for your post posplayer, you have proven that you cannot do a simple power calculation that is covered in the most basic of EE101 courses ...

You have unequivocally shown your level of competence

Cogratulations.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=161397

SHUNT_vs_SERIES_RR_Compare_Tutorial

On page 9 is an open circuit voltage measurement from a Series R/R.


I never heard of this RMS stuff though; gee whiz I must have been asleep in a couple of classes to have missed what RMS means, lets see:

AC Circuits
AC Machines
Power lab
Random Signals
Advanced Engineering Analysis: Fourier Analysis
Advanced Mathematic (Grad School);Generalized Fourier Analysis
Optimization Theory: Induced Norms
I'd have to go check my transcripts to see what other classes (Oh yea E&M I/II)

My Scope measures Peak to Peak and here it is 148VPP (at 5200 RPM) which is 74 V 0-Peak; I fudged it up to 80 zero-Peak just to give idiots an opportunity to stick their foot in their mouth .

All calculations performed as per the reference which is 0-peak. Since i "now" know about RMS maybe I could go back and see if I get the same answer?

[posplayr]

Thanks for the honor.

Yes I called you out and it seem your backbone got weak so you called me names. You must have been nerved up that you got your math wrong. I take a little longer to figure formulas out then some but I get there. It’d seem the dummy load is a load of crap that only dummies would believe. There is no reason for me to say where you are wrong because Bakalorz has already answered that. You are not keeping this at a minimal technical level for anyone. You are making stator tests so technical that hardly anyone understands it. It seems like your trying to show everyone how smart you think you are.

You want to call me out on my skills? I’m good with that. Just click the link in my signature. I’m the chief mechanic. Tested 7 stators this week, changed 1, 2 ordered, and 4 are good. How many stators you test this week? I do breaks too. I don’t have any degrees but I do have 15 year experience as a millwright (industrial maintenance) diagnoses and repair of 3 phase motors, inverters, transformers, AC to DC converters as well as PLCs, microprocessors, inferred eyes, weigh cells, and more. Point is I am by no means an idiot to this stuff. In other words I used to fix the crap the electrical engineers came up with.

Yea I guess my backbone gets weak when I have someone (namely U) who has an agenda to "check up on me" and "call me out" when they have no ability to make a determination one way or another. And why is there all of this effort of yours to checkup on me? Cause you think I'm trying to show off? Given my training on the subject and the remedial level of the writings, I wonder who is really trying to "show off".


Despite your background in AC machines, you apparently don't understand the link or the equations or or just too lazy to look but yet you are "checking up on me".

Math Errors you say????? Oh now your parotting the crap that comes from Baltzor. Why dont YOU man up and pick out of that diatribe from Baltzor where there is a Math error? Do you think you can do that?

By the way, keep math errors separate from units errors separate from physics errors separate from Errors in the application of Kirchoff laws.

I'll give you a hint there are no MATH errors as all calculations were done with a spreadsheet. So have at it.

I won't hold my breath.

[zeebob]

dude... that was awesome... I'm laffin my ass off...

[Kaiser Sosei]

This should answer all your questions:

Doesn't apply. Our bikes aren't British.

I recognize a Lucas wiring diagram when I see one.

[Graham]

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...d.php?t=161397


SHUNT_vs_SERIES_RR_Compare_Tutorial

On page 9 is an open circuit voltage measurement from a Series R/R.


I never heard of this RMS stuff though; gee whiz I must have been asleep in a couple of classes to have missed what RMS means, lets see:

AC Circuits
AC Machines
Power lab
Random Signals
Advanced Engineering Analysis: Fourier Analysis
Advanced Mathematic (Grad School);Generalized Fourier Analysis
Optimization Theory: Induced Norms
I'd have to go check my transcripts to see what other classes (Oh yea E&M I/II)

My Scope measures Peak to Peak and here it is 148VPP (at 5200 RPM) which is 74 V 0-Peak; I fudged it up to 80 zero-Peak just to give idiots an opportunity to stick their foot in their mouth .

All calculations performed as per the reference which is 0-peak. Since i "now" know about RMS maybe I could go back and see if I get the same answer?

When the factory manual gives use 80 volts unloaded tested with an analog voltmeter, and since most analog voltmeter display RMS voltage for a true sine wave it is safe to conclude that the RMS voltage is about 80 volts. For a pure sine wave the value of 2 divided by 2 (approximately 0.707) times the peak valve. Some more research maybe needed. Since you use a scope you shouldn’t need to know about RMS voltage but every one who uses a voltmeter needs to know what the RMS voltage should be for a good stator. The conversion factor will differ from different waveforms. Some voltmeters only give RMS voltage for sine wave and some give RMS voltage for other waveforms as well. If the dummy load changes the waveform from a sine wave it will give inaccurate reading on some voltmeters. Again more research maybe needed. RMS voltage is the equivalent of DC voltage that produces the same dissipation in a load (heating effect on a resistor) or the same power transfer in a conductor. I understand most basic electrical engineering classes cover some of this.
The factory manual gives 80 volts as RMS voltage or maybe even peak to peak but at no time does it say neutral to lead (zero to peak) is 80 volts. How could ever get the manufacture’s stator voltage so wrong as to think lead to lead equals zero to peak?
If you don’t know what RMS voltage is how can you figure what a voltmeter is going to read on a stator under load? Most voltmeters won’t read true zero to peak or peak-to-peak and you don't use RMS so most voltmeters are going to read your results wrong. Even your link was wrong because it doesn't fit what your trying to do fully.

http://search.pge.com/cs.html?url=ht...=pge&n=1&la=en

Yea I guess my backbone gets weak when I have someone (namely U) who has an agenda to "check up on me" and "call me out" when they have no ability to make a determination one way or another. And why is there all of this effort of yours to checkup on me? Cause you think I'm trying to show off? Given my training on the subject and the remedial level of the writings, I wonder who is really trying to "show off".


Despite your background in AC machines, you apparently don't understand the link or the equations or or just too lazy to look but yet you are "checking up on me".

Math Errors you say????? Oh now your parotting the crap that comes from Baltzor. Why dont YOU man up and pick out of that diatribe from Baltzor where there is a Math error? Do you think you can do that?

By the way, keep math errors separate from units errors separate from physics errors separate from Errors in the application of Kirchoff laws.

I'll give you a hint there are no MATH errors as all calculations were done with a spreadsheet. So have at it.

I won't hold my breath.

Bakalorz knew about RMS voltage so his math was better then yours. I just knew the test equipment (voltmeter) and you math don’t work. Common sense tells me no matter how good your math is, if you can’t hit the target your math is off. For that you call me idiot, lazy, parrot, and a show off. Just because I don’t have a degree doesn’t give you the right to belittle me. Ever seen a child come up with a good idea? I didn’t post all this to rattle your nerves but to prove you wrong so you wouldn’t mislead others. Before someone trashes a good stator or fries a new regulator on a bad stator because of faulty testing you should be right 100%. Maybe you shouldn’t be rattled but instead say “thank you, I missed that”. I’m not in this thread for you or me but for everyone whom relies on your stator papers. I don’t need the stator papers but the GSR does.

You wouldn’t have to hold your breath too long anyway.