GS Stators: Revised Phase B Tests

[Graham]

Doesn't apply. Our bikes aren't British.

I recognize a Lucas wiring diagram when I see one.

I remember Lucas. He invented darkness with a BSA.

[bakalorz]

Doesn't apply. Our bikes aren't British.

I recognize a Lucas wiring diagram when I see one.

HA HA HA HA ...

That was great ...

I've seen that diagram before, but calling it a Lucas wiring diagram ...
BRILLIANT

[bakalorz]

Ha Ha ha ha ha ha ...

Posplayer doesn't know how to read his fancy scope ...

And this isn't even the first time, read your charging tutorial from post 49 to the end ... you just don't understand the plots you show from your scope. I didn't even make the plots, but I still understand them better than you do.

That time you admitted it (after arguing about it for a while) ... lets see if you're man enough here.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...d.php?t=161397


SHUNT_vs_SERIES_RR_Compare_Tutorial

On page 9 is an open circuit voltage measurement from a Series R/R.


I never heard of this RMS stuff though; gee whiz I must have been asleep in a couple of classes to have missed what RMS means, lets see:

AC Circuits
AC Machines
Power lab
Random Signals
Advanced Engineering Analysis: Fourier Analysis
Advanced Mathematic (Grad School);Generalized Fourier Analysis
Optimization Theory: Induced Norms
I'd have to go check my transcripts to see what other classes (Oh yea E&M I/II)

My Scope measures Peak to Peak and here it is 148VPP (at 5200 RPM) which is 74 V 0-Peak; I fudged it up to 80 zero-Peak just to give idiots an opportunity to stick their foot in their mouth .

See the OTHER numbers that you so conveniently circled in the top left spot.

power and current.

They're not zero are they ... if you were looking at the instantaneous values they would be zero.

You've got the scope set to averaging you dimwit.

So that peak and all the smaller ones next to it are being averaged.

All calculations performed as per the reference which is 0-peak. Since i "now" know about RMS maybe I could go back and see if I get the same answer?

Pos, I do not trust you to correctly interpret what your scope is showing, so as far as I am concerned that number is meaningless.

I and dozens of other GSers have taken simple unambiguous open circuit voltage readings with AC voltmeters set to AC voltage RMS.

The ones with good stators get 80+ VAC RMS.

Its in the freaking Suzuki service manual.

If you need pictures to believe, I'll happily take one when its not raining ...

Sheesh, I cant believe you are actually arguing this. I could see it as an oversight, but still not getting it after having it pointed out to you ...

I didn't have a lot of respect for your competence before this, but now ...
Oh my god ...

[posplayr]

When the factory manual gives use 80 volts unloaded tested with an analog voltmeter, and since most analog voltmeter display RMS voltage for a true sine wave it is safe to conclude that the RMS voltage is about 80 volts. For a pure sine wave the value of 2 divided by 2 (approximately 0.707) [Edit Since when???? on U mean RMS factor =sqrt(2)/2=1/SQRT(2)]times the peak valve. Some more research maybe needed. Since you use a scope you shouldn’t need to know about RMS voltage but every one who uses a voltmeter needs to know what the RMS voltage should be for a good stator. The conversion factor will differ from different waveforms. Some voltmeters only give RMS voltage for sine wave and some give RMS voltage for other waveforms as well. If the dummy load changes the waveform from a sine wave it will give inaccurate reading on some voltmeters. Again more research maybe needed[Edit: so we need research now for simple linear analysis?? Linear analysis means that sine waves remain sine waves; no describing functions required; ditz]. RMS voltage is the equivalent of DC voltage that produces the same dissipation in a load (heating effect on a resistor) or the same power transfer in a conductor. I understand most basic electrical engineering classes cover some of this.
The factory manual gives 80 volts as RMS voltage or maybe even peak to peak but at no time does it say neutral to lead (zero to peak) is 80 volts. How could ever get the manufacture’s stator voltage so wrong as to think lead to lead equals zero to peak?
If you don’t know what RMS voltage is how can you figure what a voltmeter is going to read on a stator under load? Most voltmeters won’t read true zero to peak or peak-to-peak and you don't use RMS so most voltmeters are going to read your results wrong. Even your link was wrong because it doesn't fit what your trying to do fully.

http://search.pge.com/cs.html?url=http%3A//www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/customerservice/energystatus/powerquality/nonsinusoidal_power.pdf&charset=iso-8859-1&qt=nonsinusoidal&col=pge&n=1&la=en

Bakalorz knew about RMS voltage so his math was better then yours. I just knew the test equipment (voltmeter) and you math don’t work. Common sense tells me no matter how good your math is, if you can’t hit the target your math is off. For that you call me idiot, lazy, parrot, and a show off. Just because I don’t have a degree doesn’t give you the right to belittle me. Ever seen a child come up with a good idea? I didn’t post all this to rattle your nerves but to prove you wrong so you wouldn’t mislead others. Before someone trashes a good stator or fries a new regulator on a bad stator because of faulty testing you should be right 100%. Maybe you shouldn’t be rattled but instead say “thank you, I missed that”. I’m not in this thread for you or me but for everyone whom relies on your stator papers. I don’t need the stator papers but the GSR does.

You wouldn’t have to hold your breath too long anyway.

OK Graham, well first let me thank you for your trade school recital of How "sparks an magic" works. I know this is hard for you, however all I wanted is a simple explanation of what the specific errors you have concluded are in the calculation. One sentence per error is all that is required.

Let me help, I know you are probably much better at multiple choice. I read your statements carefully and was able to decipher the following pick as many that apply.

A.) Posplayer doesn't know what RMS is but Balzdorf does so Posplayer screwed up the input to the whole (or is it hole) analysis.

B.) The GS Manual uses RMS so Posplayer's equation don't follow the Manual.

C.) Nobody can measure what Posplayr is doing because they all measure RMS so Posplayr doesn't know what he is doing.

D.) Other; Explain........................................... ......


BTW I'll be discreet and PM you the errors in your tutorial, we dont want members to burn down their houses because you have an error is RMS.

[duaneage]

2.) The SHUNT PM designs are flawed regardless of how many are running around. For the GS's we are running at a 80% failure rate from the fried stator poll. Not sure how you an suggest there is not a problem??

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=167978&highlight=poll

There are plenty of other bikes with similar issues even to this day.

Ah, the fried stator poll. The definitive record indeed. I didn't see every member or owner of a GS on there but I guess if you're looking for validation you don't need to go very far.

Whatever you say Jim, you're the expert around here. Forgive me for trying to make a point or suggest an alternative reason for something.

So far more people than voted in your stator pole are running Hionda RRs and seem generally content with the solution, shunt regulation and all. Maybe they didn't vote because they are busy out riding their bike instead.

[posplayr]

Ah, the fried stator poll. The definitive record indeed. I didn't see every member or owner of a GS on there but I guess if you're looking for validation you don't need to go very far.

Whatever you say Jim, you're the expert around here. Forgive me for trying to make a point or suggest an alternative reason for something.

So far more people than voted in your stator pole are running Hionda RRs and seem generally content with the solution, shunt regulation and all. Maybe they didn't vote because they are busy out riding their bike instead.

Why yes Duane, the polls are the most definitive results for aggregate effects. They also show a close to 90% success rate using the Honda 6 wire R/R's.

[tom203]

Why yes Duane, the polls are the most definitive results for aggregate effects. They also show a close to 90% success rate using the Honda 6 wire R/R's.

I'm still using my original suzuki R/R, but I have three shindengen units as backup- hopefully I'll catch things before my testing phase cooks my stator.

[bakalorz]

So it kills me to admit it, but posplayr may not be wrong ... not totally at least anyway.

I took another look at posplayers shoestring jpg.

And something is still hinky with it, but I'll guess that posplayer did actually read his scope right.

Something is still wrong with the 148 vpp reading...
If you look at the yellow trace, the negative peak at each edge is down 4 major divisions and 1 and 1/4 minor ones. That's a direct read of a 0-peak of 85. If the wave is symetrical that means it should be 170 vpp, (and if it isn't symetrical, then the series regulator is messing with it and the plot shouldn't even have been referenced here) so there is something going on and it should not calculate it at 148.

But assume for the moment that posplayers numbers are correct as written, that makes his calculations for the dummy load correct FOR HIS STATOR.

But, In my case, I know I did my measurements right, and after I did them I checked the calibration of my meter by reading a 120 v outlet. (got 122 V RMS )
So my calculations are also correct ... For my stator.

I don't know if my stator is an OEM one or not, but I think so.
I believe Posplayer has an aftermarket one.

I find it somewhat hard to believe that there is THAT much difference between an OEM stator and an aftermarket one, but if posplayr didn't screw up, thats pretty much the only explanation left.

If that is true, posplayers dummy load is only 200% overloaded with his stator, which is higher than I would recommend but not really dangerously so for short bursts.

But using it on my stator it is 500% overloaded, which IS too dangerously overloaded even for short bursts.

(the load power varies as the SQUARE of the voltage)

And since I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one with a stator that high, that still means that posplayer is going to have to seriously uprate his dummy load if he wants it safe for all users.

---

I measured 92-93 VAC RMS @ 5000 RPM on my stator using the unloaded stator test protocol.

Posplayer, please measure yours with an ordinary AC voltmeter just as the stator pages say to do: do you really only get ~ 60 VAC RMS

[bakalorz]

I measured 92-93 VAC RMS @ 5000 RPM on my stator using the unloaded stator test protocol.

Posplayer, please measure yours with an ordinary AC voltmeter just as the stator pages say to do: do you really only get ~ 60 VAC RMS

And for anyone else still following along, please measure yours as well and post the results (and the manufacturer)

[posplayr]

So it kills me to admit it, but posplayr may not be wrong ... not totally at least anyway.

I took another look at posplayers shoestring jpg.

And something is still hinky with it, but I'll guess that posplayer did actually read his scope right.

Something is still wrong with the 148 vpp reading...
If you look at the yellow trace, the negative peak at each edge is down 4 major divisions and 1 and 1/4 minor ones. That's a direct read of a 0-peak of 85. If the wave is symetrical that means it should be 170 vpp, (and if it isn't symetrical, then the series regulator is messing with it and the plot shouldn't even have been referenced here) so there is something going on and it should not calculate it at 148.

But assume for the moment that posplayers numbers are correct as written, that makes his calculations for the dummy load correct FOR HIS STATOR.

But, In my case, I know I did my measurements right, and after I did them I checked the calibration of my meter by reading a 120 v outlet. (got 122 V RMS )
So my calculations are also correct ... For my stator.

I don't know if my stator is an OEM one or not, but I think so.
I believe Posplayer has an aftermarket one.

I find it somewhat hard to believe that there is THAT much difference between an OEM stator and an aftermarket one, but if posplayr didn't screw up, thats pretty much the only explanation left.

If that is true, posplayers dummy load is only 200% overloaded with his stator, which is higher than I would recommend but not really dangerously so for short bursts.

But using it on my stator it is 500% overloaded, which IS too dangerously overloaded even for short bursts.

(the load power varies as the SQUARE of the voltage)

And since I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one with a stator that high, that still means that posplayer is going to have to seriously uprate his dummy load if he wants it safe for all users.

---

I measured 92-93 VAC RMS @ 5000 RPM on my stator using the unloaded stator test protocol.

Posplayer, please measure yours with an ordinary AC voltmeter just as the stator pages say to do: do you really only get ~ 60 VAC RMS

bakalorz:

getting nervous about calling me out yet? You have realized your mistake finally but you are not close yet to explaining why.

The POS

[bakalorz]

bakalorz:

getting nervous about calling me out yet? You have realized your mistake finally but you are not close yet to explaining why.

The POS

Why should I be nervous, explain that part.

Assuming the above is correct (that the your stator has an output of ~60 vice mine @ 90) my mistake was assuming that your stator has characteristics very similar to mine and that the aftermarket ones are a close match to the OEM ones. Oooops you got me, mea culpa.

I am still not wrong about the following:

1) Your entire premise starting from "unloaded stator tests are bad" and insisting that there is some advantage to using a loaded test is incorrect.
I have asked you several times to point out HOW the loaded test is better.
You have still never come up with anything but vague generalizations.
Explain in detail why. Keep it as informal, or get as technical as you need.

2) your dummy load is hazardous used with any stator that has an output of 90 volts AC RMS @ 5000 rpm. Unless I have an awesome extra-special stator that nobody else has (yay!! me in that case) your dummy load is dangerous used with some of the stators out there in GS land. You need to revise it from 50 watt resistors to at least 150 watters. In addition, you also need to increase the warning from "it will get hot" to make sure people realize it will get hot enough to damage stuff in contact with it, the stator leads come out right where it would be convenient to rest it where the seat would be on top of the wiring harness. Even with an uprated dummy load thats a tragedy waiting to happen.

[posplayr]

Why should I be nervous, explain that part.

.

Because you have been making a fool out of your self starting with this post 4 days ago when I initially suggested a 20 ohm resistor for a dummy load where you claimed people would burn their bikes up if they built a 20 ohms dummy load.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1392069&postcount=30

Now I have computed (as I said I would) the power and revised the design for a 10 ohms resistor which according to you would have been twice as bad as when I posted the first time.

Now you realize my measurements are OK and your think that the output of ~60 vice mine @ 90 is due to variation in manufacturer specs because you have no other way to explain the difference.

There is a fundamental reason and you are NOT getting it. Go chew on that and see how long it takes you to figure it out.

Tic Tic Tic..................

[Graham]

OK Graham, well first let me thank you for your trade school recital of How "sparks an magic" works. I know this is hard for you, however all I wanted is a simple explanation of what the specific errors you have concluded are in the calculation. One sentence per error is all that is required.

Let me help, I know you are probably much better at multiple choice. I read your statements carefully and was able to decipher the following pick as many that apply.

A.) Posplayer doesn't know what RMS is but Balzdorf does so Posplayer screwed up the input to the whole (or is it hole) analysis.

B.) The GS Manual uses RMS so Posplayer's equation don't follow the Manual.

C.) Nobody can measure what Posplayr is doing because they all measure RMS so Posplayr doesn't know what he is doing.

D.) Other; Explain........................................... ......


BTW I'll be discreet and PM you the errors in your tutorial, we dont want members to burn down their houses because you have an error is RMS.

Again you belittle me because you missed something. You want a simple explanation but you have yet to post any simple explanation. I don’t have to do the calculations to see the missing factors. Specific error is you missed something. Some times you have to hit the nail on the head more than once to drive it in.

Don’t PM me just post it.

[Graham]

So it kills me to admit it, but posplayr may not be wrong ... not totally at least anyway.

I took another look at posplayers shoestring jpg.

And something is still hinky with it, but I'll guess that posplayer did actually read his scope right.

Something is still wrong with the 148 vpp reading...
If you look at the yellow trace, the negative peak at each edge is down 4 major divisions and 1 and 1/4 minor ones. That's a direct read of a 0-peak of 85. If the wave is symetrical that means it should be 170 vpp, (and if it isn't symetrical, then the series regulator is messing with it and the plot shouldn't even have been referenced here) so there is something going on and it should not calculate it at 148.

But assume for the moment that posplayers numbers are correct as written, that makes his calculations for the dummy load correct FOR HIS STATOR.

But, In my case, I know I did my measurements right, and after I did them I checked the calibration of my meter by reading a 120 v outlet. (got 122 V RMS )
So my calculations are also correct ... For my stator.

I don't know if my stator is an OEM one or not, but I think so.
I believe Posplayer has an aftermarket one.

I find it somewhat hard to believe that there is THAT much difference between an OEM stator and an aftermarket one, but if posplayr didn't screw up, thats pretty much the only explanation left.

If that is true, posplayers dummy load is only 200% overloaded with his stator, which is higher than I would recommend but not really dangerously so for short bursts.

But using it on my stator it is 500% overloaded, which IS too dangerously overloaded even for short bursts.

(the load power varies as the SQUARE of the voltage)

And since I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one with a stator that high, that still means that posplayer is going to have to seriously uprate his dummy load if he wants it safe for all users.

---

I measured 92-93 VAC RMS @ 5000 RPM on my stator using the unloaded stator test protocol.

Posplayer, please measure yours with an ordinary AC voltmeter just as the stator pages say to do: do you really only get ~ 60 VAC RMS

I believe the 148vpp posplayer post has more to with the regulator voltage going to zero volts output causing a surge in voltage at the stator. Like a voltage spike from turning a light switch on/off. We don’t even know if the scope reading is from a good stator. The load test that confirms a good stator hasn’t been invented yet but I do hear someone has a theory.

[posplayr]

Again you belittle me because you missed something. .

I'm asking to state unequivocally where in the equations I posted (for your benefit alone) where is the error? Since you are calling me out to check on me and keep me in-line, tell everybody where the error is. You are the one who chose to take this down this route, not me. You have to save the GSR from my incompetence don't you?

You want a simple explanation but you have yet to post any simple explanation. I don’t have to do the calculations to see the missing factors. Specific error is you missed something. Some times you have to hit the nail on the head more than once to drive it in.

Don’t PM me just post it.

OK Sounds like you are giving up. I though at least you could follow what Balzor was babbling about for 4 days. I though both of you guys said I screwed you the RMS calculations at least?

Well it is better to stay low , because he is finally realizing I might have been able to read my own scope I have had since 1997. He has an explanation for the discrepancy in our measurements, but unfortunately he is now starting to realize he is wrong. So any answers you get off of him could be wrong as well. Sorry for breaking the news.

Don't worry, I got the parts on order for the Dummy load and should be testing by next weekend. Lets see if ether of you can figure it out before then.